Koma (several questions)

General
#21

Jamie: I bet that would apply for tsugaru tone as well. Though I’m a dunce in science, I’d suspect that any taller koma would produce a better sound because the string is being pushed farther, and thus would vibrate more when released (like an archery bow). Just a theory.

I think they are also great for training power, as it takes more effort to get the string all the way to the skin. Those who start with a larger koma can maintain good tone if they switch to a shorter one (for more speed)

I think it’d be cool if you had the traditional measurements up as well, just for comparison’s sake. I only know what mine are in the traditional measurement system.

Okay. I’ll ask Masahiro about that when he returns from Spain.

Liam: Yabai!! What kind of glue are you using?

It’s was a great bid’ness meeting. Got a lotta shite (as it’s called in the biz) done. :wink:

#22

oo ^^
that is a very useful snippet of info,

#23

Kyle - Just wood glue, it held it for about 6 months last time so it should be kool, the glue had dried this morning, I put the sao in the dou this morning and its locked into place and everything. Hopefully it will withstand the tension of the strings :slight_smile:

#24

That’s weird. According to this scientific test, standard wood glue is the best. Even beats epoxy. http://www.oldbrownglue.com/pdf/HowStrongisYourGlue_FWW.pdf

If applied correctly, it should last for years. Did you scrape off all the old glue and lightly roughen the surfaces?

#25

Ive always gone by “the higher the koma, the louder the sound”. Interesting that Kameya would say higher quality… By higher quality, they might just mean clearer…

Also, why are tsugaru koma typically bamboo at the base? Some of the other styles seem to have full ivory or bone construction.

I think (and I seriously could be way off on this…) that the reason Tsugaru koma tend to have a bamboo or wooden base is a method of reinforcement. There is generally more contact with a wooden or bamboo base than there is with a hollow bone or ivory koma, and because of this, it is able to handle the stronger/more aggressive playing. Kyle, your thoughts?

By the way, is there an appreciable difference between bone and ivory?

I have both kinds of koma in the same heights, and I think that the one in ivory makes a sharper, cleaner and fuller sound which amplifies the sawari while bone makes a really round sound, and almost slurs things together. Anyone have some more findings to report on the differences???

#26

Interesting. I get a pretty clear sound, I think, with my bone koma, but I don’t have anything else to compare them to.

What about the length and width of the base of the koma? Does that have an effect on the sound, or is it just to distribute pressure more evenly?

#27

Ive always gone by “the higher the koma, the louder the sound”. Interesting that Kameya would say higher quality… By higher quality, they might just mean clearer…

Probably a combination of both points. Perhaps louder because the string vibrates more (from being pushed down farther), and clearer for the same reason.

that the reason Tsugaru koma tend to have a bamboo or wooden base is a method of reinforcement. There is generally more contact with a wooden or bamboo base than there is with a hollow bone or ivory koma, and because of this, it is able to handle the stronger/more aggressive playing. Kyle, your thoughts?

My uninformed opinion: For getting the sound most balanced, Masahiro recommends tighter skin for bekkou koma, and looser skin ivory/hardwood koma.
Ivory is definitely harder than bamboo, so with that mind for a balanced sound, perhaps a complete ivory koma gave was too harsh for tsugaru shamisen with tight skin?

I get a pretty clear sound, I think, with my bone koma, but I don’t have anything else to compare them to.

Ah yeah. I mean, bone, bekkou or ivory, they all sound good (none of them will sound muddy) so It’s hard to tell without comparison. Does Toshi sensei have a zouge koma which you could try for comparison?

What about the length and width of the base of the koma? Does that have an effect on the sound, or is it just to distribute pressure more evenly?

That’s an excellent question! I have no idea, but I bet Isono san would know. I’ll write him about that right now, and let you know what he says.

#28

I don’t know, I usually just play his shamisen during lessons, which sounds different anyway, and I think he usually puts a bone one in there for me, but he might. The folks at Katoh’s shop seemed to imply that the size of the base didn’t make much difference in sound, but I’d like a second opinion. Mostly because my Japanese is bad.

#29

Got a response from Isono san!

Translation: "The size is not for strength, but all for changing the tone.

The material, width, length, size of holes, number of holes can change the sound on the same shamisen."

I believe Isono san is one of the best shamisen makers (he made Asano Sho’s shamisen). He is very knowledgeable about tone of the shamisen, and what affects it.

#30

Any way to get a general rundown on what changes what part of the sound? Sorry for the trouble.

#31

Any way to get a general rundown on what changes what part of the sound? Sorry for the trouble.

I think this would be interesting as well. If no one has assembled this information it really is about time. Such things are crucial to have the instrument perform its best.

I guess koma with a lot of treble works better with old strings as well, so the age of the strings and perhaps even the skin should be in this table.

#32

Kyles blogcast with the different koma is perfect. I couldnt have asked for a better example.
The sound difference isn’t going to be huge, and it’s almost 100% just personal opinion.
I would love to sit down and take notes of the sounds to go along with the store our a chart sometime, but I honestly think a lot of them sound mostly the same. Lol

#33

Any way to get a general rundown on what changes what part of the sound?

The main things that affect the sound are the materials and height. For example, zouge has a sharper sound, bekkou has a warmer sound, etc. Those are pretty noticeable and can be recorded.

However, I don’t think it’s possible to compose a list for the affects of subtle changes like a 1mm wider koma and such. Changes at that level would be so subjective. Just like trying to compose cupping notes of many different roast levels. :stuck_out_tongue:

Whether it has one hole, two holes, slightly longer/shorter, etc, it will all sound good, just subtly differences which only the player can determine the most pleasing. or the standards lowered until expectations match reality. :stuck_out_tongue:

That said, when I go to Sapporo, I will try making notes for the koma as best as I can, :slight_smile: Kevin will be there for second opinions.

#34

Ok, sounds awesome. Appreciate all of the hard work on your part.

#35

Yoroshiku on the koma research! The one thing that still really eludes me is how the number of holes affects the sound. Does it have something to do with how much vibration is transferred to the dou?

#36

Sweet! I’ll try to make a mini blog about it! :slight_smile: (I intend to make daily video posts about the day’s happenin’s)

Does it have something to do with how much vibration is transferred to the dou?

I bet it would. Slightly more mass would slightly change the vibration. How much? Probably barely noticeable. Masahiro said it makes very little difference. However, we will find out! :smiley:

#37

I think the quality of the notches has a rather big impact. Any chance in the future that you could start with one without, and moving on to bigger and bigger ones?

Oh, and that aluminum koma? :stuck_out_tongue:

#38

I might be able to do that, but I have tried making shallow notches and didn’t notice any significant difference in tone. What’s more, the strings just popped out of the notches when I did sukui. :-S

Ah yes, the aluminum koma will happen! :smiley: Haven’t had time to do it yet, but it is on my list.

Speaking of which, I actually got a response from Isono san about that this morning, as I had asked him his opinion on using aluminum as a material.

“Though a koma made completely out of aluminum hasn’t been made before, a koma with aluminum base and zouge saddle has been made. The sound of it reminded me of a banjo. I don’t think it’s suited for a shamisen.”

Though that’s his opinion, he’s not discouraging the attempt. One thing he told me was, “If there’s something you want to modify, nothing should stop you from trying.” Very encouraging words.

#39

Yeah, giving your opinion but encouraging to try it out yourself is a sound mindset. It would even be interesting to have a aluminum top and some other material as the base.

Maybe it’s a good koma for when you are playing very quietly without any snaps?

When you get the time, it will be awesome :slight_smile:

#40

A shallow notched koma will cause the strings to jump out and then subsequently wear out and snap right at the koma itself. If you want the honest tsugaru tone, then your going to want to make sure they dont pop out on the sukui. A big part of a rely great players repertoire is a strong upstroke (even when playing quietly). Also you dont want that because they will make an irritating high pitched squeek when they do jump.

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