What kind of glue for shamisen heads?

Building/Repair
#1

Luckily, the shamisen I’m working on right now is a nagauta, and I have some Mochiko in the house because I’ve making mochi, so I’ll use that for now.

But, since Mochiko isn’t strong enough for Tsugaru, I tried to find Noriko. I can’t find it! I just found a couple of photos on the Internet, but when I went to the websites to buy it, they were either 404, or out of stock. From the photos, it looks as if Noriko is just rubber cement. Is this true?

I found hide glue on Amazon, so I bought some, but it won’t be here for a week or so.

I went to a Tandy’s in my neighborhood, and they had contact glue there and they said that would work great. I tend to believe them, because, after all, they’re professionals, but I didn’t buy it - I came home and ordered the hide glue (the crystal stuff that you get hot).

What kind of glue do you guys use? Would wood glue work? Titebond III is my favorite.

#2

Despite what other have said hide glue is one of the strongest glues, particularly for gluing natural materials. In Japan, shamisen along with most other traditional crafts use a type of rice glue for everything. This is partly due to the ability to “undo” the joint without damaging it. I recommend hide glue as it is easy to come by, is reversible, and can move with the wood. But be aware that it must be true animal derived glue to have these properties as some synthetic glues are sold as hide glues. Otherwise you can use a modern wood glue for a more permanent joint.

#3

Thank you, Michael! Good answer, and just what I was looking for. :slight_smile:

This shamisen that I’m restoring is quite the unearthed treasure! The more I clean it, the more I realize how valuable it is.

#4

For skinning, rice glue would be the best. However real hide glue should work very well. Set time is likely a consideration during stretching and most modern glues probably set too soon.

Have you posted pictures of your shamisen?

#5

By the way, the pre-made hide glue I have used I think is too runny for skinning. I would concentrate it down a bit to thicken it.

#6

Just got the hide glue in the mail, and I had ordered clips that I think will work better than the tarp clips that I got - waiting for those, and then I think I will start the process. Michael, thank you for all your help!

#7

Hi Lorraine.
I’ve had great success with a sort of liquid hide glue called Old Brown Glue made by W. Patrick Edwards (http://oldbrownglue.com) I order mine from Lee Valley Tools (http://leevalley.com) which is a well known tool supplier in Canada. I like it because it has a pretty long open time to give you enough time to stretch the skin. It also is easy to release in much the same way that I imagine that rice glue works. It’s made simply with hide glue mixed with urea. I’m soon to set up a little instrument making workshop in northern Thailand and will continue to use the glue there I think.

The only possible downside to some, and this would be a purely ascetic aspect, is that it can make the hide a little translucent in places especially when glueing down the edges. I personally really like that effect.

Unlike regular hide glue that needs a hot pot and potentially has a very short open time, you just put the glue in a bowl of hot water at around 120-140 degrees F and you’re good to go.

This glue has held well for me in some very wide ranging and even iffy conditions (humid, very dry, below freezing, hot 35 degree C temps) and bouncing around in a horse pack box for three mountainous months.

My two cents worth though alas pennies are no longer in circulation in Canada.
Cheers!
Cath

#8

Haha, thank you very much Cath! I so enjoyed your shamisen making videos and blogs, and they actually helped me while restoring this one.

For Michael: Here it is … I bought the entire set for a hundred dollars (or thereabouts) on eBay. It came with EVERYTHING (except a doukake), including the Seiza bench, which is VERY old, and it all came in a shamibako. I’m fairly certain that the wood is kouki, and the itomaki are bone and ivory. (I thought they were plastic!) When I got it, it was really dusty, and everything stank! lol

I started cleaning and refinishing, and VIOLA’! This beauty emerged …

Here are the itomaki - I just soaked them in hydrogen peroxide (which I use for sore throats) for an hour, and they came out clean as a whistle, and then I polished the bone itomaki with a nail buffer.

The glue has arrived, I have calf skins, and now I’m just waiting for the tarp clips - I’m going to use these for the kisen (the thought of carving 20 kisen gave me such a headache, lol) …

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B005F2Z50I/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I’ll update later. Thank you BOTH for all of your help! I’m so excited. :slight_smile:

P.S. because everything in the box was so stinky, I put a cloth with a few drops of lavender oil in the box. Now it all smells like stinky lavender oil. :confused:

How Can I Restore a Model Shamisen and Japanese Kimono Doll?
#9

Looks really great, Lorraine.

#10

awesome! i would say that sao looks like kouki :slight_smile:

#11

I just ordered a set of 40 “mini wedge clips” for $10 (“normally $58.80”) from here:

http://www.drytac.com/easyklip-mini-wedge-and-super-wedge-clips.html

I used glutinous rice paste (“per the book”) for two shamisens, with something less than a 50% success rate. Its very frustrating to release the clamps and listen to the skin go tic… tic… POP. Fortunately, I was able to soak the glue off the skins and try again.

For my most recent attempt (Celia Olson’s shamisen), I used hot hide glue, reconstituted from dry granules. The short open time is an issue - hot hide glue “gels over” rather quickly as it cools. However, the glue can be re-liquified in-place with a gentle heat gun (on the low setting) or with steam.

A useful luthiery technique is to coat both sides of a joint with hot hide glue, loosely clamp the parts together, and shoot steam into the joint gap immediately before tightening the clamps. A “household steam cleaner” with a nozzle works well for this.

I’m still really low on the learning curve for either method. I trust the hide glue bond over the rice glue. On the other hand, the rice glue method is simple and cheap, while the hide glue process requires some investment in equipment.

For warming hide glue, I use a “Rival Potpourri Crock Pot” which I found at a thrift store for $5. It maintains a water bath at 135-140 degrees F (just right), into which I place a small glass jar with the hide glue.

The low setting on my 1400 watt heat gun is more than adequate to re-liquify gelled glue. A hair dryer may be sufficient.

I recently got a “Steamfast SF-210 Handheld Steam Cleaner”. It has rather poor reviews as a cleaning device, but it works fine for re-activating hide glue.

#12

Lorraine, your shamisen indeed looks very nice. I particularly like the symmetry of the grain on the dou sides - perfectly centered rings.

#13

Thank you SO much, Dan, for specific instructions! I am inspired to maybe either go pick up a heat gun, or the steam cleaner … (where are my 20% off one item at Bed, Bath & Beyond coupons??)

Except - wow, now I’m bummed - those clips that you ordered are the same ones that I got - but I did NOT pay 10 dollars, and I did NOT get 40, I only got 25 of them. (argh - hate it when I miss a sale!) lol - oh well.

Thank you for the compliments about the grain, I know, isn’t it outstanding? I’m going to be sorry to have to put a doukake on it! I’m so tempted to write to the seller and ask him where this shamisen came from! I’m pretty sure whoever played it was a professional, just judging by the markings on the sao (Very minute cuts where the positions are), the precious itomaki, and the fact that the sao had pretty deep nail markings in it.

Another interesting thing - I’ve never seen a sao break into only TWO pieces before. Here is a before photo … it have it laying next to my other nagauta, which is karin wood, and the sao breaks into 3 pieces.

When I opened the box, the whole thing smelled of mothballs. Who uses mothballs anymore? It took me a while to recognize the scent, except I finally remembered that my mother used to use them whenever we stored the “Winter Clothes” (I haven’t differentiated between Winter and Summer clothes since I moved from New York). Surely moth balls mean that this shamisen is super old, don’t you think?

#14

The shamisen has great looking kouki wood and a nice dark dou. If the sao has deep groves in it (kanberi) you should remove them or it can interfere with playing. I expect that your shamisen was made in the 50s or 60s. A lot were made at that time and that is generally what is available on Ebay. A professional level shamisen will have gold fittings and groves in the joints as well as ayasugibori dou. Where / are there any markings on the inside of the dou? Generally sticker for the skinning has a date on it. Sometimes the manufacturing information is written on the dou also.

#15

Oh, that’s right, I forgot about the Ayasugibori - no, there’s not that, although the itomaki holes have - not gold, but shiny brass

there were stickers, but they were old and worn out …

#16

Oh my, beautiful finishing work with the shamisen, Lorraine! The tung oil sheen looks beautiful on the kouki! :slight_smile:

Noriko for kawahari is an interesting substance. It is a dry powder which is mixed with water and almost instantly gets sticky. No need to heat it like regular mochiko. I believe there is some chemical substance mixed in to give it the extra strength. There is a warning label like “Keep out of reach from children” (or the equivalent in Japanese) and advised not to inhale the dust. Unlike homemade noriko from mochiko, I didn’t dare lick the spoon.

I once tried Liquid Hide Glue from Titebond, but as Michael said, it wasn’t thick enough. Old Brown Glue would be well worth a try, and then real hide glue after that. :slight_smile:

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