Bachido Blogcast E12

[Karl_Hedlund]

Of course, at some point innovation may transform what you used to have into something very different. I have heard a lot of people born in the 50’s who complain about today’s music and say all good music was made in the 70’s. I love music regardless of what time it was created, but I see their point. What I mean to say is that today we have a lot of genres and even though they are all connected in some way, we still consider them to be different. So what defines the shamisen? To me it’s the distinct buzzing sound and resonance created by bridge against the skin. Add another string? It’s still a shamisen to me as is a 9 stringed guitar. If you take it to the extreme, you could make the shamisen into a mind controlled sound generating apparatus where you just think the notes. I would think that is cool and useful, but that is too far from how the original instrument is played that I would call it something different, like Shamindsen.

I would rather have both the GPS and the native american tracking skills, so the balance you mention should in the best of worlds be both. They are all good in different situations.

I don’t think we have any disagreement here and it seems we are approaching the question with different perspectives. The question wasn’t “what do we need to do to make the shamisen popular world-wide?” but more “what can we do to evolve the shamisen into something better/different?”

The good thing is that it doesn’t matter to someone who thinks idea X is bad if some people try it out. From what I’ve read of the stuff people dislike about the modernization of songs played on the shamisen, I just think that they should stick to what they like. It’s very selfish to be angry with a tradition dying out because something new is more approachable and cool. Of course, if you have a strong opinion that you KNOW is right, you will be exactly this. Like the last native american in a family who wants to pass on the great old knowledge, but is met with no interest. He knows that if all electricity on Earth stops working, his skills will be needed. Just like how computer musicians would equally be screwed because they don’t know how to play all the instruments they used as recorded samples.

Anyways, I think the bass shamisen idea sounds excellent. It would be really interesting to hear the sound of thicker strings on a bigger dou. We’re gonna need strong forearms, and big bachis though!

[B_H]

great artwork, Karl also I am sure I would be thrilled to see or even play a little shamisen or koshamisen or ukusen (royalty free) I also like all the other ideas or that there are a lot of ideas I hope I did not come across as wanting to “kill” that 4 string idea I just for me personally I like the shamisen to have 3 strings that characteristic and how songs are played on those is just one aspect of shamisen I like very much so I would not buy a 4 string but would not have any problem with it being available too . . .

[Kyle_Abbott]

Man, you guys are too much for me. I fear I’m gonna get steamrolled if I miss even one day of correspondence.

Karl: First off, I am a huge fan of the exhaust pipe. Got a surprised LOL from me.
As for the curve, I see what you mean! That design had actually crossed my mind last week. Of course, testing would have to be done to see if the thinner area would affect the overall sound (I would doubt it, but who knows), but I think it’s very doable and would look cool. Probably only two inches (the middle part of the dou which the kawa doesn’t cover) would be enough to notice improvements and still look classy.

By the way, Kevin, Grant and I went to Aomori city to see one of Chikuzan Takahashi’s top students preform. I swear, her forearm was deformed to the shape of her doukake. She lifted her arm up to show everyone. I was blown away.

Oooh!!! Bass shamisen!!! That is an awesome idea!!! They’ve got Bass kotos, why not Bass shamisen? Fantastic idea! As well as the shamiukes. Last year, a ukulele luthier in Hawaii sent me some shots of a shamiuke he made (inspired by the shamisen). Unfortunately, I lost the original email, but it looked quite legit.

I quickly skimmed this thread 'cause I gotta go haul some bamboo (literally) now, but I’ll have a chance to read everything later. You guys carry on. This thread needs an awesomeness exhaust pipe!

[Kyle_Abbott]

Grant: I don’t know about you, but I’m gonna have a shamisen with goat horns in our metal band. You can have dibs on the skull.

[Ortjo_Nieminen]

okay i’ve so dropped from this conversation so im not even gonna try to read and understand all this :DDD

[Karl_Hedlund]

Thank you all for your kind words regarding my art.

So she had only one forearm which was big? Hmm, maybe that should be a topic then - how to build your shamisen muscles. Maybe you guys should try getting an interview with her?

If we connect the excess awesomeness exhaust pipe to another player that is less skilled, then he can make use of that awesomeness. In the end everyone benefits!

[Gerry_McGoldrick]

Just to show that there is nothing new under the sun, here are some pictures from a book published in 1936.

Either this is a really big shamisen or those are some very small people:

Here’s a four-stringed ‘shami-lele’, with optional bow:

[Grant_Shamisensation]

I really do like the bass shamisen. I have seen one that a man was playing in Kanagi a few years ago. He had modified a normal Tsugaru Shamisen to accommodate thicker strings, which gave it that deep bassy flavor.

As far as the conversation goes on new ideas for the shamisen, I will try to simplify my point:
Let us innovate, and create new sound; summon new ideas into the world. And while doing so, we remember what makes the style unique, and what tonality can be lost if we aren’t mindful of the soul of the instrument.

(to use an analogy through art)

For years we painted with fingers.
For years we painted with brushes.
For years we painted with machines.

Shamisen is still being played with a brush, and has started to slowly move over to machine.
All of painting, technically, is arguably the same. However there is a point where you have to recognize the art within each, and in doing so, recognize that they are vastly different.
I have played both acoustic and electric extensively, and they are so massively different, it’s quite interesting.

Anyway, I want a four-stringed, double-necked, goat-horned shamisen, don’t get me wrong. I wanted one 7 years ago, and still do, lol.
I am a bit more than hesitant on spending time to attempt to make them “easier to play” though.

Please don’t mistake this perspective as one that rejects change or new styles of playing… trust me, I am a student of Kevin Kmetz, I don’t think I could ever assume such a mindset, haha.

[Kyle_Abbott]

Karl: Actually, I think Gerry might’ve interviewed her. Gerry, was it Nishikawa Yoko who you interviewed in Niigata in 2010?

Gerry: Whoa, that is a huge dou! When Masahiro told me about his Size 7 dou, I joked to him that I’d make a Size 10 dou, with that size (in the picture) in mind. They beat me to it! Haha! Man, those pictures really prove it, don’t they. Hard to make something original anymore. That’s also encouraging though. If they were experimenting with shape/style shamisen, then there’s no reason why we can’t either. It’s just like what Isono san said to us. “There’s no mystical secret to the shamisen. If you think of a viable way to change it, try it and see what happens.”

Grant: Very true. With any of these potential changes, the main thing we must always keep in mind is to preserve the sound/feeling of the shamisen. The sound makes it unique, and careful effort should be made to keep that.

Still, I don’t think there’s anything wrong with changing the shape to suit certain players. Being that Japanese biwa players modified the sanshin to suit their needs as biwa players, I don’t think the “Soul Level” of the shamisen would be reduced if the sao was thinned down for Karl’s femininely small hands ( Just joking buddy! ;-P). Adapting to suit current needs is just the flow of life, methinks. It made the shamisen from the sanshin, and the sanshin from the sanxian, and so on.

Ah! Taichi san showed me some art he did on a skin. Good quality dog skin itself is very beautiful to look at, but due to new Thai government laws, it’s getting very difficult to produce dog skin of that quality. Now, there are more scars and discolorations, which shamisen players/makers aren’t happy with. Artwork is one way Taichi san thought would make it interesting to look at.

[Karl_Hedlund]

Haha that’s one huuuuuge shamisen! So, where do we find people with one extremely long arm? And what skin did they use? Cerberus himself? I guess it would be buffalo or something.

I would prefer a more discreet artwork but I definately think it’s a good idea to cover up spots with art, as long as the paint doesn’t affect the sound.

Speaking of which, how is it going with the remo fish skin you guys were discussing? Another thing came to mind - scientists today have progressed quite a lot with producing artificial meat. In this way, no animals will have to be taken care of and killed. Apparently it’s called In Vitro meat.

Cultured meat

So I was just thinking, if they can succeed with that, then producing skin that has certain properties shouldn’t be too far off in the future. Maybe we’ll be able to produce perfect organic skins for all skinned instruments in the future with this method.

[Kyle_Abbott]

I’m curious if they enlarged the bachi as well. Perhaps they used cow. Odaiko drums use really thick skin.

Yeah, Taichi san said that paint doesn’t affect sound quality. Superglue is put under the scars on the bottom (so they won’t tear in the stretching) and the bachigawa is put on top, and neither heavily affect the sound. Thus, a layer of thinned paint (which is even thinner than the bachigawa) wouldn’t be a problem.

I’ve been hearing about that synthetic meat! I think that’s a fantastic idea, and just in time. From what I’ve heard, raising livestock (for meat) is one of the biggest contributors to the draining of resources (use of water/food for raising them). It’ll get even worse as China/developing countries can afford a taste for more meat/milk. So, awesome that this stuff is being made, and organic-like skin and shell (tortoise) is a major bonus!

[Eric_Johnson]

That four stringed shamisen Gerry linked to is actually a significantly different instrument, in my mind. I saw a kokyuu played a while back and wouldn’t mind picking the instrument up at some point either. They come with three or four strings, so no reason a Shamisen shouldn’t.

Actually, the option of a fourth string on a kokyuu was part of what made me start to wonder why the option hadn’t been explored on Shamisen, given their close proximity to each other historically.

The rear skin on my shamisen actually has some weird looking scarring (I guess that’s what it is), which I had been wondering about.

[Gerry_McGoldrick]

Kyle: it was Nidaime Takahashi Chikuzan that I interviewed in Niigata, I’ve yet to meet Nishikawa Yoko.

Eric: You’re right, of course, the kokyu is considered to be a different instrument - I was kidding when I called it a four-stringed shami-lele. I have a three-string version, and it is built just like a shamisen, but much smaller. There’s no reason you couldn’t play one of these things with a bachi, but you won’t get much volume out of it – a bit like strumming a violin vs strumming a guitar.

About instruments and innovation, I think everything is worth a try – if it works it will stick around, and if not it will disappear.
That giant shamisen was part of a response to Western classical music in early modern Japan. The idea was to make a Japanese version of the string section in a Western orchestra, but it never really took off.

It seems to me that there was a long period in the 20th century when not much innovation was happening with traditional Japanese music because it was struggling just to continue to exist. The Tsugaru shamisen boom has allowed for all kinds of interesting things to happen. Players don’t necessarily see the music or the instrument as a sacred thing that can’t be changed, so they hang a Hello Kitty cell phone charm off of the neo, or have things painted on the back skin. Acrylic koma and itomaki, and bachi with more ergonomic shafts also come out of this way of thinking.

[Eric_Johnson]

Also, what about some different woods? Isn’t part of the expense associated with kouki due to it being hard to get ahold of? Maybe there are some less conventional woods that would work just as well.

I thought the kokyuu had some slight differences, but I’ve never held one. I did see one played at Katoh-san’s place the other month.

[Kyle_Abbott]

There’s no reason you couldn’t play one of these things with a bachi, but you won’t get much volume out of it – a bit like strumming a violin vs strumming a guitar.

And besides, Kevin’s already done it. - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aB5hfG7lhuc

Very interesting point about the early innovation (or lack of) of the music. It’s lucky that the tsugaru boom has happened, as it partially restarts the interest of innovation that happened earlier. I think it can probably be more successful due to the ease of connection - ability to know/understand what people actually want in a shamisen, not just changing things for the sake of making it look different and hoping it will become cool again.

Eric: Ah yes. Just like dog skin (which is becoming more impossible to obtain, due to the Thai government cracking down on killing dogs for food, and thus skin as well), kouki will get harder to obtain. I think the main reason kouki is prized is because it’s such a beautiful wood, but other woods would work just as well. It’s only for the sao/tenjin, after all. The dou is still made out of karin.

I guess it would be just a matter of finding the right wood (heavier is better) that looks the best. This bloodwood (which I’m currently making a shamisen from) is awesome, but the ruby red kind is also becoming rare. Perhaps Purpleheart?

I just realized, you wouldn’t really need to widen the sao to have a 4th string. Mandolin has four pairs of strings, and is about the width of a shamisen sao.

[Kyle_Abbott]

See the headstock on the bass?

Trivium - Ember To Inferno (LIVE: Chapman Studios)

That’s what I want to have on a shamisen tenjin.

[Eric_Johnson]

I’d like a four stringed monstrosity made out of African Blackwood, please. I think you’re on the right track using Bloodwood, but yeah the nicely colored stuff is getting rarer.
Here’s a link that might possibly be helpful: http://www.wood-database.com/wood-articles/top-ten-heaviest-woods/

Purpleheart’s not that hard, I don’t think. Certainly softer than bloodwood, and probably wouldn’t be as exciting as you’d hope over time, as the purple fades.

Does most of the shamisen skin come from Thailand?

[Kyle_Abbott]

Awesome list! Glad to see my baby made it to the list!

Haha! That would practically be a whole shamisen made out of ebony! It definitely could be done. I’m attracted to the Verna wood. Looks rather obtainable.

Ah right. Purpleheart is like padauk, isn’t it. I guess a little light for mid/high range shamisen models. It would be good for the student models though. For the purpose of selling beginner tsugaru shamisen sets as cheap as possible (~$300), we’d need to have very accessible wood to lower production costs as much as possible. Purpleheart/Padauk is easy to obtain, and seems similar to karin (which is light-ish), and has the attractive dark quality.

However, not the case for mid/high range shamisen models. Heavier wood would definitely be worth doing for those. Thanks for the list.

Ipe seemed like such a good option. A super hard wood, yet easily obtainable! (That’s a rarity of itself) Unfortunately, after making a whole shamisen out of Ipe, I found out that super hard woods tend to be extremely oily (where any glue fails over time) and constantly crack.

[Kyle_Abbott]

I think all dog skin (for tsugaru shamisen) comes from Thailand. They can make it in China, but Chinese eat young dogs, so the skin doesn’t get thick enough for tsugaru.

So basically, if Thailand finally bans killing dogs (for food), the supply completely runs out.

[Eric_Johnson]

I’m actually a big fan of padauk as a tonewood, it seems to do good things, in my opinion. I’d be curious to see how it does as dou material.
What about Korea? They eat dog there, right? Is that not suitable either? I support Thai rights to eat dog if they want to.