Hi there
Here is a picture of the shamisen my teacher lends me right now. Looking at the shape of the hatomune, it is a nagauta shamisen. He agrees with that but although confirms it is a chuuzao. I’m a little confused. Is this possible ?
Thanks for your help, as always.
my thinking is that you’d probably have to measure the dou and the sao - but I’m a noobie, so I might be way off base.
Hmmm… that is very curious. My knowledge of those styles is quite limited.
Michael or Gerry, any ideas?
I have been wondering about this as well. I have seen several shamisen that had curved hatomune but were described as chuuzao. The thicknesses of futozao and hosozao necks are 35mm and 25mm, so your Sao’s thickness should be 30mm to be a chuuzao.
Really? I believe standard futozao are 30mm. :-S I think Nitta san’s is 35mm, but he calls his shamisen ‘super thick’
update Just measured the width of a standard futozao and it’s 30mm
Hmm I got those measurements off my shamisen, so I guess mine is “extra thick” too lol. If that is the case then it should probably be somewhere between 25mm and 30mm.
More to the point, I’ve been questioning if a sharp hatomune is a requirement of a chuuzao, or if the focus is mainly on the thickness of the parts.
Oh! I just remembered! When Nitta san had a chuko tsugaru shamisen with a chuuzao neck (ideal for petite players), he measured it as 27mm. 
Just now I measured a nagauta shamisen next to me, and it comes in at 25mm.
So if we were to standardize it, perhaps we could say
Hosozao: 25mm
Chuuzao: 27mm
Futozao: 30mm
More to the point, I’ve been questioning if a sharp hatomune is a requirement of a chuuzao, or if the focus is mainly on the thickness of the parts.
That’s also a good question! Well, gidayu shamisen is futozao with the hatomune of a nagauta shamisen, so I’m inclined to say focus would be on the actual neck thickness.
I have always felt that the sharper hatomune on the futozao shamisen was to make it more robust and to add a few extra positions onto the sao for Tsugaru style. Thanks to Nitta san for making it even better with the “No Limits” shamisen!
Just weighing in with my two cents.
These measurements are from Kisaburo Futoma’s 1964 book “Shamisen knowledge”:
Hosozao (nagauta, zokyoku [hauta, etc]) 24 to 24.6 mm
Chuuzao (kouta, jiuta, tokiwazu, kiyomoto, shinnai, utazawa, min’you) 25.5 to 26.1mm
Futozao (gidayu, Tsugaru) 26.1 mm and over
The measurements I recorded in my thesis varied a bit from this, as they will from maker to maker - I found chuuzao measuring from 25 to 28 mm. But in my opinion there is no need to get too hung up on these measurements, I mean there may be certain ideals, but a chuuzao with a nagauta koma on it, and played with a nagauta bachi is going to sound basically like a nagauta shamisen, and vice versa.
speaking of your thesis, Gerry, I don’t think I ever properly thanked you (though this may not be the right place). Whenever I first considered making a shamisen, my impulse (before I found bachido) was to look through my school’s database for information, where I found your thesis. Within a few minutes, I found the information I wanted (measurements and such). For a month after that, it was the only thing I wanted to read. Not only was it informative, but it was well-written and generally amazing. Thank you for providing such an excellent work!
Sorry to bother you with my newbie questions (and maybe it’s been already discussed on this forum, but I can’t find where) but where do you measure the sao sizes ?
Just measure how wide the top surface of the sao is, the “fingerboard” if it was a guitar.
Thanks, Cody. As a guitarist too I guessed it was that but the size is (a little) different close to the hatomune and close to the tenjin. Is the size always taken with the two measures ? And if so, where exactly are they taken. Sorry again for my poor knowledge about shamisen and my poor english.
Most sao have a taper so the middle would probably be the best place to measure, or just get an overall average width.
But I agree with what Gerry said, the size isn’t really as important as how you play it.
My shamisen is finally 25 mm, so for my teacher it is chuuzao, for Gerry it is between chuuzao and hotozao, and for Kyle it is for sure hosozao… Well, thanks, friends, for taking away my confusion (I’m joking…). Thanks really to make me realise it only a word question.
Bryan, thanks, that’s very nice of you to say. I’m glad that it has been of some use. Having theses available in a downloadable digital form is a big step forward; in the past the one public copy would have sat in my university library, unread, until they eventually threw it out.
Patrick, where to measure the neck is not at newbie question - I’ve never come across the answer to that. I didn’t want to make things more confusing here, but in my thesis I took two measurements, one at the top of the neck, by the tenjin, and another at the bottom at the last point the strings could be fretted at. I think your last point, that it is just a question of words, is exactly right.
Wow, lots of activity on this thread overnight, and I came away knowing so much more than I did a few minutes ago … Thank you all!
Gerry, I would REALLY like to read your thesis, would it be horrible to ask for the link, or do we have to rent it or something?
I agree with Gerry. In my experience there is not a set thickness but a range as these are hand made instruments with variable starting material. If you want to be a traditionalist, I think it is better to think of the style of shamisen first, that is a jiuta shamisen is a middle sized shamisen. There is also some overlap in neck thickness.
However, to answer Patrick’s original question directly, I do not believe this shamisen should be classified as chuzao. It is probably a nagauta shamisen but I would need more dimensions to confirm. I have found that players of shamisen (including very experienced Japanese experts / teachers) don’t necessarily know or understand the construction of shamisen. Unfortunately I also find that people often rate their shamisen (usually for sale) at a larger size since these are more valuable and desirable.
Lorraine, if you have access to a university library account, you can just search for it and download it for free. If not, send me a private message with an email address that I can send a file to. The PDF is about 8 MB.
Kind of hate to dig up an old post but this topic will likely not go away as more older shamisens turn up! As a new Bachido member, like many others, I’ve spent a lot of time dredging Bachido to figure out also, what it is that I’ve bought :)!
Mine, like Cody’s has a curved hatomune, but seems larger than a Hosozao. Measurements on mine go like this: 25 to 25.5mm just below the tenjin, 27.5-28mm at the bottom of the sao just before the curve. The dou supplied is 19.5cm x 21.5cm centre to centre (including the “bulge”).
Edited to add: for clarity, the sao measurements are face (playing surface) only. The base of sao at the bottom of the curve where it meets the dou is 39.5mm (ie the face of the sao flares to 39.5 where it meets the dou)
Itomaki are consistent with most nagauta itomaki seen and are ebony. Its purported to be about 60-65 years old and was sold to me as a Futozao… The sao and tenjin appear to be kouki, and the joints all but disappear when it’s together. Few marks, no wear, straight neck!
Taking a chance on ebay, I’m more than pleased, given how little I paid! Still trying to figure out just what it is, exactly…:). The dou came unskinned, so that will have to be a project when the weather warms up… Thanks for this site - learning a lot…