Deciding when to play Sukui

Playing/Techniques
#1

I haven’t got to the point where I feel my Sukui (upstroke) is natural enough for me not to focus on it when playing. Currently I play it when the notation tells me to. As a guitarist, I am well aware of how much easier it is to play fast parts when alternating between down and up strokes with the plectrum.

However, in some slower songs I feel like there is no need for a sukui. Or the other way around, “if I am supposed to do sukui here, why not in all these other places?”.

I notice the difference in sound, but as a beginner such subtle changes in the sound is not in the scope of my concentration as I am more focusing on the technique.

My main question is, if you compose or play a song that has no notation, what would you say tells you when to perform sukui or not?

#2

Good question, Karl - I remember wondering exactly this when I started studying nagauta. Here’s an attempt at an answer:
With Tsugaru shamisen, the sukui has a few different functions, one of which, as you said, is to make it possible to play fast runs.
In Japan’s “art musics” (jiuta, nagauta, etc) the sukui affects dynamics – with a volume that is somewhere between the standard downstroke and the hajiki – and timbre or tone quality. Its placement in this music can sometimes seem arbitrary, as it’s all about very subtle timbral differences.
Another function of the sukui is to help build a song’s rhythm - this is more obvious in folk shamisen than in the art musics. Look at a score and you might see that, for example, the sukui shows up on the last note of every 4-note bar (hard-hard-hard-soft), or every other note (hard-soft-hard-soft) and this gives the piece its distinctive rhythm
All of those things are important in Tsugaru shamisen too, but players also work on making the downstroke, sukui, and hajiki almost indistinguishable in those “430 000 000 000 (etc)” sections so that they flow more smoothly.

Of course, you need to get good enough at it that it performs the function it was intended to, so for now keep playing the sukui where the score tells you to - ideally you’ll have a recording to imitate. Eventually it will start to sound “right”, and then deciding where to put it in your own compositions will become second nature.

#3

Thanks for an interesting answer! I will definately have the song structure in mind. I almost feel a little ashamed that I didn’t think of it on my own. Now that you have enlightened me I might have an easier time getting the right feeling and getting it right faster.

I had planned on asking this a little bit later when I would have had practiced more, but if I try to play fast my sukui gives this little squeeky sound as if the bachi was being dragged along the string. My assumption is that I use too little force or have my arm in a way that I can’t make a proper straight motion without losing force. If anyone had any similar experience in their beginner times, please feel free to share what you know :slight_smile:

#4

The bachi squeak on the sukui is another one of those extraneous sounds that you work on minimizing over time. Like you said, it is the sound of the bachi being dragged across the string, so the less dragging, the cleaner the sukui. That you are aware of it at all at this point means that you are listening to the sounds that you’re making, which is a good thing. But don’t worry too much about it; it’s a long-term project. When the Yoshida Brothers were still competing in contests, I remember my teacher remarking on how much cleaner Kenichi’s sukui technique was than that of the other players - so it is something that even very good players worry about.

#5

Great answers from Gerry McGoldrick. I have very little to add to that but I will summarize what I think to be Mr. McGoldrick`s best point concerning the Sukui
withint the context of Rhythm, and when to use it etc.
Remember the basic Ushiro and Mae bachi positions in Tsugaru Shamisen.
Ushiro Bachi means a downstroke right about at the center of the Dou. The reason it is placed at “Center” is because that will (according to the laws of physics) produce the loudest sound.
Mae bachi is mostly played softer and produces a contrast.
Sukui in relation to these two gestures serves a lot of the time as a way to
“Bring it on home!” as they say in Rhythmical terms.

For example the rhythmic layout of the standard Jongara bushi tune is
(as Gerry was pointing out) in 4 beats which are as follows

(hard-hard-hard-soft)

but a more subtle breakdown (including the bachi strokes) could be
visualized as. . .

Ushiro-Ushiro-mae-sukui.

The degree of subtle difference in dynamics varies from player to player
but we can see an obvious dynamic flow being illustrated here.

To break it down even further (just to be ridicuous)
We can feel that the first two beats are Strong and Loud (“1” and “2” and etc…)
beat 3 shows a movement away from that into a different sonic realm.
beat 4 is then executed with a “Sukui” in order to turn it around so the whole thing can start over.

#6

Ah, very nice to wake up on a sunday morning and read more quality answers about shamisen! I had a 2 hour shamisen session friday evening in which I wanted to practice on the things discussed in this thread.

Sukui:
Definately made an improvement. I can still hear a little bit of squeak but now it sounds good. When I was improvising a bit I noticed myself performing sukui sometimes when it felt right! I’m happy that I’ve been able to connect to that part of my guitar playing as moving from downwards strokes to alternating up and down was one of my hardest things to learn on guitar.

Basically the main thing that made it possible for me to make the sound better was how I held the bachi. Funny enough I was watching a video by Kevin to try out how you hold the bachi in different parts of songs. In your live Ringo Bushi video it looked like you were almost holding it like a fan at one time, playing very wide up and down strokes. When I tried this out I noticed how I couldn’t bring the bachi up again and then it struck me that there is no way in Newton’s world that I can bring it back without having more power farther out on the bachi. So I started focusing on holding the bachi so that I could apply more power with my index finger and voila, success.

As a rhythm tool:
I tried thinking about it when I played but since I’ve currently only practiced Kuroishi Yosare and Ringo Bushi I kinda felt that I need to move on to more advanced songs to apply it. But as I progressed with my Sukui, Ringo Bushi started to feel much better with a better musical flow. I’m gonna keep practicing on these two songs and my improvisations until I feel I have the techniques under control. Then I can move on to more advanced songs and read this information about the rhythmic layout again!

#7

Karl,
Thanks for the detailed report on your progress. It is quite exciting to start to get the feel for the Shamisen isn`t it? Perhaps you can upload your current playing into a new video sometime. I would especially be interested in your improvisations. In my personal opinion that is the ultimate goal and purpose
of Shamisen…or maybe for all instruments(?) Not that I have anything against music that is predetermined (written) but I feel as though improvising is the true way to communicate with music.
Keep us posted on your continuing progress!

#8

Hey everyone,
Today was the first day I noticed myself doing this, but after performing hajiki on the san-no-ito, or even while doing a run on it, sometimes it felt right to perform sukui on the ni-no-ito after (like doing a quick suberi) before returning to the san-no-ito. It felt like it worked, and I’m assuming if you can get it to sound clean it shouldn’t be a huge issue, but I would like to know if this would be considered bad technique (performing sukui while skipping strings)? Obviously this is when I ended with a downstroke on the san-no-ito, but just out of curiosity, would you ever perform two sukuis in a row in this manner? That sounds like a really dumb question, but… oh well!

#9

Johanathan Tarajcak,

to quote the Founding Father (Kyle Abbott) “There is really no such thing as a dumb question!”
your question will doubtlessly be answered a few different ways depending on who you are asking. But I will give you my personal answer.

What should be considered Bad Technique is really a rephrasing of the consideration of what is unnatural or limiting to your personal expression on the Shamisen.

To put it another way… If you find yourself doing something that you think may not be the “Normal” way to play Shamisen but you discover that, with practice this expression has the potential to sound totally natural, fluid and that you can develop the ability to focus and control it and use it to express yourself then who can claim “Bad Technique” anymore at that point.

More accurately you may have discovered a “New Technique”.

And if anyone tells you otherwise you can always just laugh at their closed-mindedness and pity them for being stuck in a fading past while you take steps into the unfolding future!

#10

Karl,
Keep us posted on your continuing progress!

I’ve uploaded two videos, found in this thread: http://bachido.com/community/forum/topics/139

Feel free to give any advice. I do start to get the feel for shamisen and I do notice problems with my playing. Or should I say “technique to be refined” :slight_smile:

#11

Wow! Thank you for a very encouraging and inspiring answer Kevin. They can say what they want after that response. I will continue to practice!

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