Electric pickups

Thought an electric pickup would be an obvious addon to one’s shamisen because:

A) It’s electric, and it makes a sound. So there can’t be anything cooler than that.
B) Some experimental techniques tend to be quiet and could use a boost. And adding electric raises experimental to the second power.

So what I’ve figured so far, you need: a pickup, a cable, and some kind of an processor-amplifier-speaker system (often the guitar amplifier). Some questions though:

  1. Which pickups are recommended for shamisen? There used to be one in the Bachido store and another was in Kyle’s vid (the one costing just $15). Are there too many good options on the market to list? I read the options on type are limited because shamisen doesn’t accomodate all the kinds of pickups that regular electric guitar do.

  2. Are the connectors highly standardized? I’ve understood the guitar amp usually has that 5-6mm audio socket, which back in the day was used for large headphones, how about the pickups?

  3. Is there a reason not to connect the pickup into a PC/Mac/computer instead? Using an adapter to convert the 5mm connector into the more common smaller one.

  4. How much would one expect to pay for a decent guitar amp? Buying 2nd hand could be an option.

  5. Do you even get good enough sound with a pickup for it to be worth serious attention? (I think professionals who went with electronics always used special electronic shamisen.)

  6. Would the same pickup also work on different kind of instrument, such as biwa or sitar?

http://freecarvers.com/bh/ys1.jpg
http://freecarvers.com/bh/ys2.jpg
http://freecarvers.com/bh/ys3.jpg
http://freecarvers.com/bh/ys4.jpg
http://freecarvers.com/bh/ys5.jpg

grin as it happens I picked up the idea of seriously electrifying my shamisen a couple of days ago so I am about to give that another try but don’t wanna bore the bachido community with anything other than a video I shall do once I got this to work out :slight_smile:

as for in general there are two kinds of pickups . . . e guitar got magnetic pickups which only work with metal strings so not of use for shamisen . . . a piezo pickup picks up any vibration and can generate electricity from any kind of mechanical vibrations also this pickup does not need to be placed directly under or near the strings it can be placed anywhere on the body also and this is the kind of pickup used for acoustic guitars and can be used for other acoustic instruments certainly including shamisen . . .

I would want that cute white made for shamisen pickup which I guess you have mentioned but basically any say acoustic guitar pickup for 35 bucks or whatever is a piezo disc worth 35 cents on a cable and in a convenient plastic case to attach to the body of the guitar somewhere and you can see these piezo discs on one of the included pictures also you can see the marshall mini amp I got which does not generate much distortion but is looking cool of course and very okay overall and for its cheap price too . . .

electric shamisen are out there they got solid plastic skin and I think a battery powered preamplifier inside the body also to boost the rather weak electricity generated by a piezo disc on its own . . .

  1. Which pickups are recommended for shamisen? … I read the options on type are limited because shamisen doesn’t accomodate all the kinds of pickups that regular electric guitar do.

As B H says, anything that needs steel strings won’t work on a shamisen. That rules out quite a few acoustic guitar pickups too (anything magentic won’t work). Anything with a piezo will work (at least for experimental purposes), but you aren’t limited to discs. I use an acoustic guitar under saddle pickup like this - http://www.stewmac.com/Pickups_and_Electronics/Pickups/Acoustic_Guitar/Fishman_Thinline_Undersaddle_Pickup.html - placed under the koma with the preamp attached to the dou.

Things like the Mugen 21 (http://www.shamisen-katoh.com/e/mugen21.htm) don’t use pickups - they use a mic attached to the inside of the shamisen under the skin. This is actually better, in my view, because the shamisen is highly percussive and a straight piezo misses all of the ambient sound.

  1. Are the connectors highly standardized? I’ve understood the guitar amp usually has that 5-6mm audio socket, which back in the day was used for large headphones, how about the pickups?

Fortunately, that day is still with us. The vast majority devices made for amplification will attach with either 6.35mm (1/4") phone jacks if it’s an instrument or an XLR connector if it’s a mic. Pickups in and of themselves usually just have two wires coming out of them (or three sometimes, but you aren’t attaching a humbucker to a shamisen) but those wires are attached to a 1/4" jack.

Likewise, the vast majority of amps take 1/4" plugs (or XLRs if they’re doing mic duties as well).

  1. Is there a reason not to connect the pickup into a PC/Mac/computer instead? Using an adapter to convert the 5mm connector into the more common smaller one.

One reason is that it will either not sound at all, or it will sound horrible, depending on what sort of set up your computer has. If your soundcard is set up to take line levels only (i.e. it has no instrument inputs) the piezo will sound pretty thin and flat.

You really want either a direct box or a preamp. The under saddles I pointed up above often come with preamps, and you get a nice strong signal out of those. My chain goes shamisen > pickup > preamp > guitar amp. I don’t record much, just to a portable digital multitracker, but my experiences in going direct to a computer haven’t convinced me.

  1. How much would one expect to pay for a decent guitar amp? Buying 2nd hand could be an option.

You can expect to pay a lot or a little depending on how good an amp you want. The outright best amp for shamisen I have ever heard is an AER Compact 60. Incredibly good (of course the person playing it was pretty good too). That cost AUD1800 (of course the person playing it was a pro). I play through variously a very, very loud 30w Laney valve amp (expensive), a very loud 100w 70s Yamaha guitar amp (used, cheap) and a perfectly adequate little Roland Cube 20 (used, very cheap). The Roland Cube is perfect for experimenting - it cost me way under AUD100, you can cart it anywhere and it’s loud enough to be fun.

In general I’ve found amps voiced for acoustic guitar are a better fit than amps voiced for electrics, but I don’t play much acoustic guitar, so my shamisen has to put up with rock boxes…

  1. Do you even get good enough sound with a pickup for it to be worth serious attention? (I think professionals who went with electronics always used special electronic shamisen.)

It won’t sound like the natural sound of a shamisen. But you can make it sound OK with some care. A preamp and some time with the EQ helps a lot.

  1. Would the same pickup also work on different kind of instrument, such as biwa or sitar?

Attachment of the transducers is your main issue - under saddles need something they can slide under easily like a koma. There are some sticky dot type pickups that seem like they’d transfer to other instruments. The cigar box guitar guys seem to like them. Don’t know whether they’d sound any good, but if they’re cheap, it’s worth a shot.

great info thanks . . . didnt know the mugen had a mic inside but ive heard before that in general a good and also regular outside mic can beat a pickup when it comes to recording or amplifying acoustic instruments … whereas a pickup though has the advantage of isolating the sound for mixing in a live band performance setting but of course that is all hearsay to me . . . :slight_smile:

actually ive tried out an under the saddle pickup (a cheaper one for 12 bucks at a local music store) without any preamp and it was easy to attach and all but was no louder than a 2 disc selfmade setup i had tried out earlier on another instrument thats why i want to install several discs inside the dou now and see or hear what funny and hopefully louder result that might bring :slight_smile:

ive heard before that in general a good and also regular outside mic can beat a pickup when it comes to recording or amplifying acoustic instruments … whereas a pickup though has the advantage of isolating the sound for mixing in a live band performance setting but of course that is all hearsay to me . . . :slight_smile:

Yep, that’s spill, i.e. picking up the sound of other instruments in the mic intended for only one instrument. Drums are notorious for causing spill problems. But spill is mostly an issue for recording - most live settings don’t really demand pristine separation. Good mic selection and placement solves most of the problems anyway.

Probably the bigger issue for most people is that mics require stands, placement and eq - it’s fiddlier to set up than just plugging in and playing.

actually ive tried out an under the saddle pickup (a cheaper one for 12 bucks at a local music store) without any preamp and it was easy to attach and all but was no louder than a 2 disc selfmade setup i had tried out earlier on another instrument thats why i want to install several discs inside the dou now and see or hear what funny and hopefully louder result that might bring :slight_smile:

Preamps don’t just add volume, they help with making it sound good. A piezo can get plenty of output on its own but they can sound very tinny or buzzy without some help. Without getting too technical, if they’re hooked up direct to amps, in a lot of cases piezos have trouble getting the lower frequencies (bass, low mids) across. The preamp helps with that, and thus the sound is much fuller of richer. If you’re interested into getting into the technicalities, look up “piezo impedance”.

started out hopeful :slight_smile:

http://freecarvers.com/bh/piezo1.jpg

an hour later I had enough as for trying to get a soldering connection between the wire and the golden part of the disc it doesn’t stick so I will take my 6 discs and 12 wires to a professional i hope i will find such a person tomorrow . . .

http://freecarvers.com/bh/piezo2.jpg

anyway thanks for the piezo impedance pointer i had a look and naturally find it all the more suspenseful now how my truly far from sophisticated design will end up sounding :wink:

an hour later I had enough as for trying to get a soldering connection between the wire and the golden part of the disc it doesn’t stick

File or sand (gently) the part of the disc you are soldering to. The rough surface will take solder better. A nice cross-hatch should do the job.

ah thanks pearls of wisdom in every reply I might make use of it sometime who knows I basically dont like craftsmanship though which is also the reason i find it hard to gather the energy to seriously research stuff on my own Im lacking crafty talent in general so . . . anyway and although I did once manage to do this soldering on 2 discs 2 years ago I today brought it to the store i bought the discs from and a nice guy there did the work for free i gave him 5 euros so gotta tryem out tonight hope all are working and then id be just left with the fun part of joining and installing them around the inside of the dou :slight_smile:

http://freecarvers.com/bh/pi1.jpg

after hotglueing obviously for the first time in my life :slight_smile: I got another step forward as for the not visible ones they are placed closer to the top skin

http://freecarvers.com/bh/pi2.jpg

aaand all 6 discs are working :slight_smile:

http://freecarvers.com/bh/pi3.jpg

okay I’m wrapping this up here . . .

  1. Jesus Christ I almost lost it or in other words crafting stuff is not something I uh like this is the most I can do okay so the piezos are working I joined them without problem I did mess up the jack though and don’t have good contact (on/off loose contact) there so I need to buy a new jack at the music store and have the wires soldered onto the jack by a professional too well then I and I will just twist the joint piezo wires to the jack wires this should be a solid and cool actually working system then for continuous use I am happy about enough with . . even with the table cloth skin I can play and hear conveniently loud and at the max setting of the marshall mini amp I have haha it makes you think about hooking up some effects pedal too the electricity generated would be enough I reckon . . . even got feedback from the amp still ringing in my ears this evening :slight_smile:

  2. so the volume gain is great this sound clip is all I could do tonight after spending 2 hours with what should take 20 minutes . . . only illustrates the comparison relative to each other between unamplified (0-10 seconds) then regular full volume (10-30 seconds) and overdrive full volume (30-60 seconds) of this 6 piezo disc system hooked up to that marshall mini amp I have . . . of course I have no idea whether one piezo disc would have yielded the same result already but whatever this sounds workable and I am actually looking forward to practicing or even playing shamisen more often now that I have this . . . :slight_smile:

http://freecarvers.com/bh/pr2.jpg

http://freecarvers.com/bh/pr1.jpg

http://freecarvers.com/bh/gain.3gpp

it makes you think about hooking up some effects pedal too the electricity generated would be enough I reckon . . . even got feedback from the amp still ringing in my ears this evening :slight_smile:

Yep, you’ll have enough juice to push stompboxes if it can drive your mini Marshall. You’ve gotten me interested in experimenting again. I hooked up some boxes today. None of pedal distortions sounded good (much better to run it really hot into my amp and dial back the master volume, good crunchy Marshall rhythm sounds to be had there). Digital delay was good, analogue less so. Chorus was fun. The real eye opener was the hyper long reverb on my Yamaha SPX processor - sounded like doom. Will try and get some sample sounds next week.

awesome I would love to hear that and would say once you have a recording clip please open a new thread about such fun sound experiments . . .

after the technical discussion here I will also open a new thread to show the eventual inspiring result of my efforts . . . :slight_smile:

(also thanks to your remarks I tried out one more modification today I need one more part from the store to hopefully complete this tomorrow)

Cool! Yeah! Let’s have some audio or even better video clips!

Hey all. I do a bit of electronics work for fun and have played with piezo sensors for DIY percussion projects so I thought I’d give making a pickup for my shamisen a shot. I have one that’s a higher end vibration sensors thats super thin and flexible.

Turns out, it fits really nicely under the koma. I threw it together pretty quickly so there’s a bit of noise on the line, but when done right it should clean up just fine. I’ll try to get a recording of it up once I get a cleaner signal.

Nice! I guess dropping some hot glue onto the connections including a bit of the cables could already make this tough enough for everyday use …

Funny you should mention gluing the connectors on the back of the disc. The reason I tried the flexible sensor was because I was waiting on a disc I’d been coating the back of with Plasti Dip to dry. It takes several coats, but results are looking promising. Should be ready to test tonight.

I tried using one of those. It buzzes like crazy because there’s no shielding.

I finally got around to recording some samples of my Plasti Dip back coated piezo disc sensor and my under the koma piezo film sensor. I have a beginner level tsugaru shamisen with synthetic skin. I wired the sensors to female 1/4" jacks and attached them with a typical 1/4" male to male cable to an iRig (made for electric guitars) connected to my iPhone. I recorded some test notes as well as part A of Kuroishi Yosare Bushi. I started shamisen lessons in March so pardon my playing and thank you Kyle for the crash course videos.

The taped disc arounds alright, but I hate taping it to my shamisen. I worry about the tape dampening the tone and tape residue funk. Yuck. I also tested pushing the sensor into the head to see how much more sensitive I could make it. The sensor under the koma seems the most practical, but you really have to find the sweet spot to get just the right tone. It might also help to have a preamp to help with the signal. I’m wondering if a small acoustic guitar pickup amp would work well.

I wouldn’t record an album with either of these, but they could work really well for live performances. Either by jacking into an amp or connected directly to a venue’s PA system. Let me know what you all think.

so it works congrats :slight_smile: as for my own setup without a regular skin I basically need a pickup to play loud enough at all and I like having some fun with distortion using a guitar effects pedal in between my shamisen and amp so that’s what such an improvised system surely can and does do well enough for me . . . as for professionally useful overall sound quality or picking up ‘natural’ skinned shamisen sound I certainly can’t offer advice on how to possibly further improve that :slight_smile: