help a composer out

Playing/Techniques
#1

I can’t seem to find much info on this, but when it comes to switching bridges what can I expect? I’m writing a piece for hosozao shamisen, but I imagine the same bridge switching techniques are used among most types of shami? so since it’s solo one of the things I was wanting to do is switch between ‘zouge’ and ‘bekkou’ koma at various points (or rather, for hosozao/nagauta, size and size 3.6). is this possible/practical, how long does the switch take?

I’m not going to be switching in the middle of movements, but rather one movement might use zouge and another bekkou. since this is a solo work, intonation change wouldn’t factor in, but in ensemble works it would, so does changing the bridge necessarily mess with the intonation? would a higher bridge pronounce bass more, or is that what a lower bridge does? thanks in advance, I can’t seem to find too detailed information on this practice of switching out bridges to achieve a different timbre.

#2

Well I guess it’s a matter of opinion but personally the subtle difference in timbre created by switching bridges is so subtle that I would hardly consider it worth putting any thought into. It’s like the difference between a guitar tone set to the lowest tonal setting and one set to just next to the lowest setting. A listener would have to have supernatural hearing to actually percieve any difference. When I play with different bridges I personally don’t hear any difference in tone at all but it might feel different to my fingers so I might be inclined to play differently… Switching bridges takes as long as it takes to pull the bridge out and replace it with a new one. A good guess would be about 10 seconds or less. Intonation isn’t affected at all unless you are changing the position of the bridge or unless the bridges are extremely different. Of course this is just my opinion and I admit I only play futozao so I may not know the deal with hosozao. It could be a bit different .

#3

your thoughts are definitely enlightening Kevin, I’ll have to take that into consideration. your analogy with guitar tone knobs was spot on as I am a guitarist myself, so if the difference really is THAT subtle I may not do it.

#4

As Kevin said, Tsugaru bridges come in various heights, widths and lengths, and some are more decorative than others, but the sound doesn’t change a whole lot between them. But between genres there is great variability. Gidayu bridges can be more than twice as high as Tsugaru bridges, and several times heavier.

Here are two things you can try to change the timbre of the shamisen in ways you might find useful for composing:

  1. Change where it sits - closer to the edge gives more treble, closer to the middle the sound is deeper and noticeably louder. This will definitely change the intonation, but you can get use to it with some practice.
  2. Use bridges of significantly different weights. To see what a difference this can make, put two pennies under the bridge you are using now. This approximates the sound you’ll get from a Gidayu shamisen bridge.

Any bridge switching you do will require you to retune a little, so it might be hard to do on the fly on stage.

#5

I have a new question or two in addition to this: the use of the left hand pinky in ‘fretting/stopping’ notes (I have heard shami players only use the first 3 fingers). can I expect a stretch of 1-4 to be possible, on any of the strings?

and chords, specifically barre chords such as 121 or 655 or similar where the index finger can fret down all the strings, as I’ve heard this technique is also not used by shami players though I can’t see why not (apparently biwa players use barre chords though). does the fact that they are fretless mean in a 121 shape, the 3rd string would need to be fingered by the middle finger rather than barring with the index (leaving the 2nd string to be fretted by the ring) due to micro-intonation problems?

thanks again guys, it’s incredibly difficult to find out detailed information on any type of shamisen, even with resources like minoru miki’s ‘composing for japanese instruments’ book, it seems internet forums are the best place to directly contact real players on these things.

#6

I don’t know why many teachers and very old fashioned players often proclaim that you can’t play chords on the shami. This is not true whatsoever!! Bar chords are especially easy and natural to execute. But most three note combination chords are possible. It is true that traditionally only three fingers were used but no player in their right mind would try to finger something with their ring that creates an unnatural stretch when the pinky could be used to solve the problem very easily . Check out some of the players out there who are demonstrating the chordal, multi layered counterpoint that is possible with the shamisen.
Masahiro Nitta (obviously) , Mike Penny, Kinoshita Shinichi and me, Kevin Kmetz.

#7

I didn’t try playing chords so far but stumbled upon some when fooling around on the neck and also I got a slighly damaged index finger joint so I try to play mostly on middle ring and pinky which I am getting used to though . . .

so in both cases I thought about whether this was a departure from whatever standard or tradional ways (not that I cared overly a lot about that) but anyway it was kinda nice to read this comment cheers Kevin and I feel even more free than before to also try out including chords in the future . . .

#8

yes that was extremely enlightening! I’ve already made one of the movements into a multi-voicer contrapuntal one, and have been putting in some easy to play yet crazy sounding chords.

#9

Hi Connor,

Speaking from a Hosozao point of view, changing bridges changes SO much. Using a zouge koma makes a louder sharper tone, whereas bone koma make a much more mellow sound. I only use 3.5 height. 3.6 is a REALLY high koma, and isn’t always available everywhere. 3.5 is normally the height used by the lead shamisen player because it is really loud. In my opinion, higher bridges amplify more when it comes to Nagauta. The intonation might be a bit funky after switching because the tension of the strings change. Even still, it might just require a quick fine tuning if anything at all.

Sometimes just for fun, I’ll switch to a Jiuta koma (water buffalo horn). The sound is totally different. Its a really mellow, deep sound.

Kouta koma (Redwood with a zouge lining where the strings touch) are really nice in the high register. If you are playing with a bachi instead of fingers, they make a really sharp clear sound up there. They are higher, and because of that are a bit more difficult to do really fast sukui (upstrokes) on.

Bekkou koma is not really used with hosozao shamisen, and Kevin or Kyle would be able to talk about that with so much more detail than I can. It is more of a Tsugaru/Really expensive Jiuta koma material, but is definitely useable with hosozao if you wanted to.

1-4 is completely impossible for most (unless you have monstrous hands), even if you use pinky. The farthest most will get is a 3# (which isn’t really a note…), and that is super uncomfortable on the index finger.

Not sure about Tsugaru or modern compositions, but for the rare bar chords in nagauta, the middle string is always left open.

An example of this is in the piece “Tsuna Yakata” or “Tsuna Ken” meaning “The house of Tsuna”. Here is Martha Rinoie playing this piece, and you can see this technique around 1’48".

San no ito : --2-2—2- (Index finger)
Ni no ito : --0-0—0-
Ichi no ito : --2-2-2-2- (Middle Finger)

Hope this helped a bit!

Joe

#10

Joe, what do you mean that 3# isn’t really a note? That it isn’t used often in shamisen music? I’m pretty sure its the fourth fret on a guitar, so for a C tuning it would be E.

#11

Hi Karl!

Well, 3# IS a note, but it’s a note you’ll hardly ever play. “No its not even a note! What are you talking about? There’s no such thing! It doesn’t exist!” lol. You are right, 3# is actually the major third in the scale of the key you are in. I’ve actually never thought about how shamisen positions and guitar frets could work together like that. Very cool! The only time I ever see a 3# notated is if a composer wants to slide from a 3 to a 4, they sometimes write 33333333######4444444 etc. Maybe for tsugaru its different?

#12

Haha, yeah I think we are a few “heretics” that want to use the shamisen for other music. It’s true that it is different for other types of shamisen music, but I haven’t looked into that more. I would be happy to receive information on how the different styles have their notation because I want to support all kinds of shamisen in the MIDI reader I am creating.

I also noticed that some helper-stickers show 10b while others leave it out. But basically if you have 3# and 10b you have all the 12 notes. All it really does is that your total becomes 10 for the octave instead of 12. It’s pretty strange :slight_smile:

Tsugaru notation

(tone-tsugaru)
1-1
2-2
3-3
4-3#
5-4
6-5
7-6
8-7
9-8
10-9
11-10b
12-10

#13

It is good that Conor Helms has gotten more info from Gerry McGoldrick and Joseph Monticello since those are the guys that really know about the nagauta…hosozao,chuzao world etc.
Incidently trad. Tsugaru peices do use the 3# from time to time. Aiya bushi is a good example of this. And as far as chords being non traditional…
Well, I will see if I can find a clip to post here but I can tell you I have definately witnessed Takahshi Chikuzan bust out the chord action on more than one occasion!
It is historically acurate to say that for the old Japanese folk songs chords were probably not “Impossible” but rather just not appropriate due to the flavor and structure of the music being so specifically stylistic. But Chikuzan was a pioneer who was one of the performers responsible for transforming and introducing Shamisen into the context of a solo performance.
When he first started performing he pretty much played the songs he knew and grew up with but if you watch his performances over the years and observe how he changed things you will notice that at one point he just sort of said “Fuck It!” and simply began wailing away with complete disregard to any “proper” way of playing. It is the mesmorizing wildness of Chikuzans free and improvisational style that eventually captured the hearts of his audience (Not “Just” the fact that he could whip out a decent Jongara bushi) and this greatly contributed to Tsugaru Shamisen being recognized as a much deeper, richer more subtle and more dynamically expressive instrument than previously realized.

My point is that you should never just look to books, teachers or online info to come to your final conclusions as to what is possible on any instrument. Chances are there will be someone out there somwhere proving it all wrong by stretching the boundaries!

Hey Kyle… How about I do a Chords for Shamisen video upload for bachido?

#14

Encouraging words Kevin. Making a new style of shamisen and sharing with bachido… Someday (maybe not me but someone and someday)

#15

Kevin that sounds like a very good suggestion! I haven’t practiced with any chords yet so a video on your ideas and experience would be very motivating!

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