Ichi no ito loose when performing sukui

General
#1

So have had problem arise lately during my practice sessions: my san no ito gets loose from it’s koma notch sometimes when I do sukui, making an awful high pitched clicking sound.

I’ve never had (or at least never noticed) this problem before just recently.

I thought maybe it was that the bone on my koma had gotten worn so I tried using my bamboo one (which I almost never use) and I still had the problem.

So I checked the notch on the tenjin and didn’t find any problems.

The sound is really annoying and it’s distracting me from focused practice. Just to describe it, it’s super high pitched and it’s the exact sound you get when you first Insert the koma and click the strings into place.

So I’m wondering if maybe some of you have had a similar problem, and if you could point me in the right direction. I have a suspicion that it could either be an string issue or somehow my technique has gotten too rough without my knowing.

For reference; I play the nagauta beginners shamisen with mostly a bone tip koma, nylon strings, and the faux bekkou bachi.

Any help would be wonderful.

BIG EDIT: I meant san no ito sorry for my mess up there. I always imagine the san no ito as the “first” string since it’s the one I end up playing most often, haha.

#2

Tl;dr My sukui is literally causing the san no ito to pop out of place when I play, and I’m not sure why this has started happening.

#3

Ah darn, that does sound pretty annoying!
I haven’t experienced this exactly like this myself but I’ll try to help if I can!

Couple things so I might be able to offer some advice.

So, for sukui as you know it’s only supposed to be as much force lifting with the index finger as you put on the bachi with the thumb for a normal downstroke. Itmight help if you could post a video to help us see if it’s technique oriented or if it might be the koma/string itself. This is also more of a guess, but if the string is tied to high up on the neo it could be that there isn’t enough tension keeping taut.

Also, how high do you typically tune? I have had my san no ito pop out during a particularly heavy bachizuke phrase when I had it tuned pretty low and at the time at least I figured it might’ve been due to the tuning tension, since normally I play higher and it doesn’t happen .

#4

Derp, I messed up the string order. I meant San no ito. I’ll edit the post and then get on checking those things out and uploading a video

#5

Ah no problem! I was wondering what would make the ichi no ito sound high pitched but then I was wondering if I mixed them up, whenever talking about strings I have to count them over in my head to make sure too since I mix up the ichi and san no ito up all the time haha

I’ll check it out and see if I can spot anything when you post it, thanks!

#6

Okay the recording, hope y’all don’t mind my voice too much.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rCHNnICOWUg&feature=youtu.be

#7

Sorry but for some reason the video isn’t showing up! I tried getting to it through your Yasaburo Bushi improv too but it won’t show up.

Could you try reuploading please?

#8

Try the link again, I think I set it to private while uploading, but it should be turned off now.

#9

Hey Tino,

I think you have a few issues working against you.

Hardware wise, make sure that the natural line of the string without the koma lines up closely with the koma notch.

Also make sure your koma is oriented correctly, and that you’re not using the wrong notch for the san-no-ito.

Your koma also seems to be a little far up your dou. Although it will vary depending on your style and koma height, you’ll usually want it to be about 2 - 3 finger widths from the edge/neo. As well, make sure the sting is knotted below the edge of the dou.

You might also be having some technique troubles, but I don’t have the time to diagnose them atm D:

#10

Ah ok there it is :smiley:

That’s interesting! I might’ve noticed one or two things that I could think of as contributing to it, though ultimately experimentation like you said would probably be the way to go to make sure of just what it is.

Now these are just a couple ideas based off what I saw, please don’t necessarily take it for fact.

First with your koma placement, I wonder if that might be a cause. In the video it was a little crooked and high up looking: not by a whole lot, but I wonder if that could be a factor. I’d try it on my own shamisen but at the moment the rest of my family is asleep and I’d hate to wake them right now :stuck_out_tongue: tomorrow afternoon I’ll probably try a few things to see if I can replicate the problem and see if that causes it.

If that is the case I’d say to try lowering it and evening it out - having it parallel to the bottom about 3 fingers from the neo is typically a good way to go, but a tiny bit less (2/2.5 ish :p) can be played around with. Generally that’s just for tone (lower placement has a sharper sound with higher placement being warmer) but it could be that having it too high makes it easier for the string to slip - maybe it just makes sense in my head but I’ll try it out tomorrow and let you know if I still think that has to do with it or not.

As for your technique it looks alright for the most part, though on the initial demonstration (around 1:20) your sukui looks more like a scooping motion, which I could also see as possible pulling the string out. The notches inside the koma are smooth, and pulling it against that and popping not it out could be a factor. You did do it well plenty as well, just make sure that after you hit the bachi is planted and you lift straight up, rather than scooping it out. During the bachizuke for a while you had it going straight up and down and it didn’t pop at first so just maybe that’s it. I’ll try a bit with this tomorrow as well.

I noticed a bit of oyogibachi to be honest (hitting in maebachi and letting the tip slide a bit) but I don’t think that’s the cause.

So yeah, thanks for the video! It helps a lot. I’ll play around with a few things too and see what happens, please feel free to experiment with these thoughts too and see if there’s a difference.
If this isn’t it I’m not so sure what it might be to be honest :stuck_out_tongue: I hope I can help!

Edit: just saw Christopher’s comment! I’ve reiterated a lot of the same but with more pointless words I guess :stuck_out_tongue:

#11

Hey just a followup on last night’s post.

So I played around with the ideas a bit on my shamisen and I think koma placement has the most to do with it. When I had it at about the same level as yours the san no ito repeatedly came loose with the same high pitched “ping” sound, but when I had it 3 fingers up from the neo with the strings lined up straight perpendicular with the notches it worked without issue.

Here’s about how I have it normally

[Album] koma placement

Just try lowering it and straightening it out a bit, I think you won’t have a problem!

#12

Alright so, I followed the advice for lower the koma placement, and it worked it! Not only has the chirping mostly ceased but I’ve also noticed a far clearer sound, especially for positions 10+ where I’ve been bothered by the bad sound for awhile!

I had always thought it was either just because I wasn’t playing a higher end shamisen, or because I was using a nagauta shamisen, but now it sounds so much better.

I guess I never noticed the koma placement being a problem since I always followed the 2-3 finger rule. The problem is that I was always starting it where the loops on the neo stopped extending over the dou, causing my actual placement to be more like 4-5 fingers from the edge of the dou (where I was actually supposed to start the finger measurement).

I think I never noticed since that’s how I’ve done it since I started playing, but now this is like a major epiphany for me, haha!

Thank you so much guys. Not only for solving my first problem, but also solving a problem I didn’t even realize I could fix!

#13

Oh yay! :smiley:

I always jam the edge of my fingers up against the base of the neo just to be safe when putting in the koma haha

So glad it worked out and even the tone is better! You’re welcome! :smiley:

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