Slipping Itomaki

Playing/Techniques
#1

Hey everyone

Good news! I finally have my rental Shamisen from my teacher, so I can actually practice!

Bad news - the Itomaki are driving me crazy!!

I know they are held in place by friction, and you need to push them in as you turn the Itomaki so they don’t slip. I’m using A LOT of force, more than i’m comfortable with just to get them not to slip out of tune. The smallest string is the worst, even when I played in class it needed constant retuning.

-Is this just a weather thing? (it is extreemly humid in Japan right now)
-Does it need new Itomaki?
-Am I just not pushing in hard enough? (I hope not, my hands are in a lot of pain from just one tuning!)
-Exactly how much push is nessesary normally?
-Is there anything applied to the Itomaki to give them more grip? A resin maybe?

I think I have it tuned now, but even as I sit here writing, i’ll check again and they’re slipping out of tune already! So frustrating >_

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#2

It’s hard to say how much push your instrument requires, but one thing that might help you is to always end the tuning by tightening the string. That means tuning the string lower than you want, and then progress up till it’s right. This will create more friction.

#3

Thanks Karl. It occured to me that it’s also possible it just hasn’t been played in a while. I’ve had a little luck with a sock and persistance, but the smallest string is still a pain at times! Hopefully i’ll get better friction with regular tuning and playing.

The tuner on Bachido has been a life saver since I don’t have a nice electronic tuner to help me out. It’s all on the to-do list, i’ve invested so much into playing the Shamisen already. It adds up fast!

#4

Evyn,
Can you Skype w/webcam or whatevr its called (visual) ? I can show you how to keep it in tune but it’s so hard to do with just words. You’ll need to see with your eyes what is going on.

Well I could tell you to pull the strings out of tune and keep doing it until they no longer slip but that sounds confusing already . There is a specific way to pull on them. The thing is that the strings will keep slipping until they find a tuning that they settle into. The idea of pulling it out of tune and retuning it is basically that you force all of its desire to slip out of tune out of it. Kinda like forcing the string to get all of that out of its system first so you don’t have to suffer through it. The trick is to just keep knocking it out of tune and retuning it…over and over again. Each time you should notice it becoming harder and harder to knock it out of tune. That’s good! That is what you want. After repeating this process over and over
You should come to a time where even yanking or pulling on the string will hardly cause it to go out of tune anymore. Once you have reached that point you can pretty much play for an extended period of time without worrying about it slipping anymore.

But again, you should really watch someone doing this. It is not easy to explain with words. Probably just confusing without a visual demonstration cause there is a right way and a wrong way to do this.
But for what it’s worth I hope that helped.

#5

Hey Kevin! Thank you for chiming in! I kind of know what mean, I think i’ve seen videos of that pulling technique but I don’t remember seeing my teacher do it. So the strings need a bit of “exercise” before they’ll settle? I guess my teacher didn’t elaborate about this with me, and it doesn’t help my Shamisen book is all in Japanese. -_-"

I have noticed today at my 2nd attempt at tuning, it was a tiny bit better. Maybe it’ll progressivly get better as I tune it regularly for practice. I just didn’t know, i’m used to the luxury of only fine tuning with a Viola and occasionally turning pegs that stick really well.

If it isn’t getting better as I think it is, it would be great to plan a Skype chat. It’s a bit fussy on my OS (Ubuntu) though, and sometimes my web camera just decides not to work. >_<

For now though i’ll keep working with it everyday and let you know how it goes, it’s Obon so I have time off work to play with it.

#6

Evyn, you can use a small amount of toothpaste on the itomaki to rough it up a little which might help it stop spinning/slipping out of tune (take the itomaki out and rub it with the paste, then wipe it clean and put back in) Then tune it up, then gently pull on each string like you are pulling on a bow and arrow (not too much though!) until the stretch comes out of the string, then give it another tune. hope this helps.

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#7

Hi Evyn,
It sounds like you are trying to tune the ito maki while they are tightly cinched in the hole. I might be wrong, but this could be why it is hurting your hand.
An important point about tuning is that you don’t want the ito maki fully in the hole WHILE you are tuning the string. Doing that will grind the two surfaces together, causing serious wear and tear.
You want to have the ito maki at a point where it can be easily turned (not so tight that turning it is difficult, but not so loose that it can move side to side in the hole), then
wind it until the string is in tune, THEN cinch it in the hole with a bit of force so that it won’t slip. When you are tuning up, and when you are loosening the strings after playing, your hand should be controlling the string tension.
As Kevin said, it’s not the easiest thing to explain in words, but I hope that helps a bit.
If you’ve been grinding the ito maki in the hole, they may now be slipping. Pete suggested toothpaste to give the two surfaces some grip - that’s a handy tip I hadn’t heard before, but I’ve also recently heard of people using rosin (the stuff you use on violin bows) for this. In the past I carefully sanded the surface of the ito maki where it comes into contact with the metal ring, but over the course of several years this wears it away like a pencil sharpener, and you end up with a stubby ito maki!

#8

Pete - I hadn’t heard of using toothpaste, great suggestion! But is toothpaste safe on wood though? I had a simular idea of using resin, like Gerry mentioned. It’s not my Shamisen though, so I need to be careful about what I experiment with.

Gerry - ah maybe that’s what i’m doing wrong! As I am tuning I am pushing it in at the same time! So if I understand correctly, i’m meant to get it in tune, then push it in?

It’s also hard to explain in words, but basically I would be pushing it in as a turn it to get it in tune, and once it sounds in tune I would let go, thinking it’ll stick there from pushing it in constantly, but right away it would slip like it wasn’t sticking at all. That’s where the frustration kicked in because I tried it several times and it would just slip out without any grip everytime. And sometimes it would grip, but the slightest movement or even playing would make it slip again.

I’ve actually only played this Shamisen a couple times, I just got it on Friday, it’s a rental from my teacher. I don’t know what the previous renter did with it.

I worked with it last night, and the 3rd and 2nd strings are doing better, not slipping out as much. 1st string, the little one is a little better but still a pain. I have to retune about 2-3 times for a 10 minute practice session, but that’s a lot better than before.

#9

This might not be the case, but are any of the strings coming into contact with the wooden frame of the tuning box? (I’m not sure if that’s what you call it, but I mean the wooden “window” of the neck that holds the itomaki.) If any of the strings are pressing right up against the frame, this can push them out of tune. I had this problem when I first started out, but tuning became much easier when I made sure that the strings weren’t touching the sides at all.

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#10

Interesting! I’ve never heard of using toothpaste before, but I can see that working once it dries. It’s quite gritty. In fact, some dentists are warning about the use of electric toothbrushes and the paste, as the abrasiveness digs away notches in the teeth. I’m thinking of switching to a manual brush soon, as the dentish recently found a few teeth worn away from overbrushing.

Gerry: I grind up violin rosin and pack it into the holes when the itomaki start to slip. It’s been working very well, and I haven’t noticed the itomaki wearing down much. I keep it in an old film canister. When I take it in my shamisen case to Japan, I always worry the the inspectors are gonna think it’s drugs or something. (Oof, they’d be in for a surprise if they tried to snort it! ) :wink:

#11

I sanded the very end of my itomaki just a tiny bit one time when it was slipping too much. Since then I’ve never had a single issue with any of them. Obviously you want to be extremely careful, and I understand your hesitancy to use a lot of force (you shouldn’t have to). Also the violin rosin is another good way to ensure they don’t slip. But if that doesn’t work, consider sanding it a little bit.

#12

Hi, Evin! Sorry to come here late, but I also had the same problem about 9months ago right after getting a Shamisen. It began with a big slipping and my asking my teacher made him give a hard grip. Since then, the problem continuously occurred but gradually am getting how to manage.
It is a matter of course to get used to it. Hope you have a lot of fun playing shamisen!

#13

Wow! that trick with the toothpaste helpes really on my sanshin!

#14

I also have a problem with the san no itomaki. More than the fact that it is out of tune regularly, it suddenly goes out its place, even without playing or when I move the shamisen. I am not sure but seems that the itomaki has not enough surface touching the zagane. How many millimeters have to be inside ? In addition, the end seems really too bright. An idea ?
A day later, I realize that the itomaki does not lock at all and just wants to unroll. It seems to be getting worse. Any help ? Do I have to sand it ? Thanks

#15

Patrick, when you twist it into the whole, does it get tighter to the point where you can’t twist it anymore? Or will it still move even while you push the itomaki into the whole?

Oh, saw the update. Fortunately, the itomaki should have some spare thickness for you to make it fit tighter again. It will have to be sanded or lathed so the taper matches the taper of the hole.

A lot of shokunin san offer the service of fitting itomaki, so that may be an alternative if sanding is difficult.

#16

I’ll try to sand it be fore showing it to a shokunin san. In fact, it seems that there is not enough contact with the input zagane when it hangs against the ending hole (hmmm, am I clear ?). Thanks Kyle

#17

Very helpful. I just started the video course yesterday after looking for a local teacher for 13 years(!)

#18

Welcome to Bachido John! This is the place you waited 13 years to find!

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