Classical music on Shamisen.

My heart will go on would be awesome :slight_smile:

but im pretty sure it would be abit of a challenge to extend the notes asfar as a flute can if you know what i mean…
would love to see an attempt though

Great! I’m glad i’m not alone loving the idea!!

I’m not that worried about the notes, but I am wondering if/how chords would work with three things. The flute video inspires me personally, but I know it’s not a great example.

Here’s a guitar version that might be closer to a Shamisen, but it may not be the best example either because this guy is a pretty epic guitar player.

Thanks everyone for all the input and ideas.
Yes classical pieces arr. for ensemble do seem to work
Pretty well. Also I started thinking more about modern music
Again thanks to mr. Eric J.'s comment.

I think drawing influence from 20th century music is another great idea. I haven’t heard too much of that outside of the Chuzao scene. I’ve always admired Akiko Nishigata for her interpretations of modern music written for Shamisen.

I wrote a short chamber piece a while ago for piano, strings and Futozao. Here is a tiny excerpt from that

So sorry that I’m SO terribly late to the party (and after receiving a personal invite too). But it has been an interesting thread anyway, it seems.
Most people here appear to have much greater knowledge of classical music than I, so I doubt I can add much in the way of suggestions for pieces. ( I am rather fond of the 1st movement of Vivaldi’s cello concerto in C minor but doubt that The Mighty Kmetz would find it very challenging. I mean I learned half of it on electric bass from memory!) So instead, I’ll direct your attention to a couple of Ottoman classical pieces, just for edification purposes. I don’t know how well these would work with shamisen as the only voice but it might be worth a listen anyhow.

Oh, I forgot to add…
There’s a shorter, more rhythmic, and very fun version of Uzzal Pesrev but I can’t find a clip anywhere. So, if you’d like, I’ll record and upload it myself. Been wanting an excuse to show off my gorgeous new baglama anyway.

the folk song: uska dara might also be another suitable tune…i just can’t find a decent link atm

Hey just want to thank everyone for sharing their ideas here. I got some new ideas from some of these suggestions. Also if anyone else is currently working on anything classsical or even just non traditional please share your link here.
Bachi On everyone!

Hey Kevin, I really like that segment from your piece inspired by modern composition! Do you have any more? It reminds me a lot of later King Crimson stuff.

Whew, finally made it here and got my thoughts together somewhat.

Kevin, out of the videos you posted, I was expecting to like the Brahms best, but actually, I gotta say, I really liked the Chaconne. My feelings on the subject have changed a lot, where previously I felt that the tsugaru shamisen was best suited for fast, intense playing, but now I’m not so sure. Let’s see how well I can explain my thoughts…

Maybe it’s just a recording quality thing, but in a lot of the videos I’ve seen on youtube it seems like the tsugaru shamisen has very little sustain. Since there’s a lot of classical musical that’s based on bowed instruments with long, sustained notes, this would make the shamisen seem ill-suited to those kinds of pieces. I’ve thought about getting around that problem with tremolos, something plucked instrument players have be using for centuries. It works pretty well, I think. Anyhoo, most western classical pieces I’ve seen adapted for shamisen tend to be the faster ones, which I guess are similar enough to tsugaru to make the adaptation make sense. When suggesting songs for the new cd, I myself tended to suggest those kinds of pieces. After listening to a lot of these shamisen versions, though, I’ve come to find the scraping noise of the bachi on quick uchi-sukui runs a little harsh and distracting. It would make things less “tsugaru,” but maybe this could be remedied with a softer playing style. Additionally, you run into pitch problems when you are trying to play speedy pieces originally designed for instruments that are usually shorter and/or have more strings (violin), or are just pitch-perfect (piano). Jumping around on the larger shamisen with only three strings makes accuracy more difficult, and this is especially problematic when playing western classical because it places much more importance on pitch accuracy than eastern music. But hey, if you can do it, more power to ya.

Anyway, after thinking and playing around some more, I now feel like actually, no, the shamisen has great sustain, it’s just distributed a little differently. The ichi-no-ito has amazing sustain, especially played open with the sawari. Then, the sawari mixed with the other two strings opens up some great sustain and harmonic possibilities. The ni-no-ito has less sustain but still has a certain deep character, and then the san-no-ito has the least sustain (and yet still seems to get the most play in traditional tsugaru pieces, but then again, those tend to be fast so you don’t notice it as much). I’ve been experimenting with a play style that has a more soulful, lamenting quality to it, and I’ve often ended up with stuff that sounds a lot like oud improvisations. Example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nK5FJZOi9u4

There’s a lot about the oud playing style that I think suits the shamisen. The way they will often be playing a higher string but occasionally intersperse a single sounding of a lower string definitely works on the shamisen, and then the fretless nature of the instrument allows for a little more flexible in pitch and tone. I’m no expert on the oud, though, so I’m sure there’s a lot I don’t understand.

Anyhoo, back to western classical. Like I said at the start of this post, I was really surprised by how much I liked the Chaconne. It was something I hadn’t heard before, and it really opened my eyes to how powerful the shamisen can be even in silence. In trying to think of speedy, tsugaru-like pieces from the western classical repertoire to adapt, I had completely forgotten about how important silence/space (“ma,” 間) is in traditional Japanese music and the Japanese aesthetic in general. I liked the range of styles shown in the piece, from slower, paced out bits in the start to faster playing later on. I felt like it showed the potential of the shamisen more, whereas other, faster pieces can sometimes seem to me to just be “Oh hey, they’re playing that piece on the shamisen. That’s funny.”

Sooooo… yeeaaaaah… There’s my long ramble. I feel like this conversation would be a lot easier in person…

Yeah, Chet, I think we’re on the same wavelength. Sweet.

I feel like this conversation would be a lot easier in person…

Another reason why we should try out the Bachido live chat. :slight_smile:
Dratted time zones!

Kevin, sorry to be so, so late getting here. Don’t know where the time went over the last half of this past week… (Well, part of it went to the Bachido mon discussion, which I made the mistake of reading and getting into before I read this thread…!) Anyway, thanks for emailing me, and I figure better late than never. :wink:

Most of the comments I would have made (about the shamisen’s sound, solo vs. ensemble, sound quality, resonance, pieces that get played on shamisen just to prove it can be done, etc.) have already been thoughtfully presented by Grant and Jamie, among others, so I won’t bother reiterating what’s already been said. In terms of classical music, I was generally a Bach girl m’self, so you can’t go wrong with that. :slight_smile: However, as others have commented, the classical repertoire doesn’t seem to come across quite as well solo as it does as an ensemble. So, for classical ideas, perhaps some of Bach’s (or other composers’) string quartet/chamber music repertoire could work - maybe http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Vk17Qh3-fiA.

I’ve come to find the scraping noise of the bachi on quick uchi-sukui runs a little harsh and distracting.

I agree with Jamie about that. He suggested tremolos as a way to work around that and also the sustain issue. Maybe it’s just me, but I find that little trick Takahashi Chikuzan used to do (i.e. using the bottom of his bachi handle to do tremolos, rather than using his bachi for sukui) seems to give a somewhat softer, gentler sound… granted, it’s a subtle difference, but it’s one I hear, anyway… So for classical pieces and/or any where a bit more sustain is appropriate, perhaps that might be worth trying. Also in terms of other techniques to use on shamisen, one never seems to see pizzicato (in Tsugaru, I mean). It is a technique that geiko/geisha frequently use for kouta (it’s not really pizzicato, of course, they’re hitting the string with the flat of the fingernail) - - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Et-Fukavg_I. Geisha also have a little finger-pick they often use instead of a bachi (sorry, can’t remember its name at the mo’) which imparts a less harsh sound. Perhaps doing the tremolos that Jamie suggested with the geisha finger pick might add an interesting texture(?).

As for other pieces to transcribe, I was wondering if harpsichord repertoire might yield anything interesting. (I haven’t played harpsichord for decades, so I can’t think any particular piece right now, sorry.) Jamie mentioned the sustain issue with shamisen - it does, of course, have sustain - especially if you’re sitting in front of it or actually playing it! - but that doesn’t always seem to translate for some reason. Harpsichord also doesn’t have sustain (unless you physically hold the key, that is). And, for some reason, altho’ I realize they’re completely different instruments and sounds, there’s something about the general timbre of shamisen (when played with a lighter touch, or without bachi) that brings the sound of harpsichord to mind. So its music could maybe be transcribed… Mind you, the only person in the world who’s likely to ever transcribe any and let me find out yay or nay is probably you, Kevin! :smiley:

In terms of other directions to go in, I second previously-mentioned idea like medieval and Renaissance. How about even hurdy-gurdy? I’ve always liked your Macedonian vid - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T1ydP2_a7uw. So Middle Eastern, Eastern European, etc. folk/traditional stuff might work well. And I like Chet’s second Ottoman piece, so throw that into the mix. :wink:

Anyhoo, that’s it for now. This all sounds like a “break-out session” that Kyle should consider incorporating into the 2014 Bachido tourney!

Yeah, Chet, I think we’re on the same wavelength. Sweet.

Definitely that, Jamie. As a guy simultaneously learning Japanese and Turkish music, I can hear little things the two have in common with many of the cultures that lie between them. That’s what I was getting at when I uploaded Ringo Bushi played on the baglama. BTW, did you know that the neck of the Turkish baglama is called the sap? Even some of the terms sound similar.

Thanks for the endorsment, Linda. Uzzal Pesrev (pronounced “pesh-rev”) is among the most interesting Ottoman pieces I know.
There’s also a Turkish folk song called A Ya Zein (sp?) that’s a ton of fun to play on shamisen. But good luck finding a clip. Guess I’ll have to play and upload that one too.

Chet - this it?? http://www.emusic.com/samples/m3u/song/10892132/13739756.m3u

Yes! That’s the one. And that’s pretty much the whole tune. Sounds like this one is Persian. Slightly different from the way I play it. But either way, a simple, fun little piece. Thanks.

Thanks for the endorsment, Linda. Uzzal Pesrev (pronounced “pesh-rev”) is among the most interesting Ottoman pieces I know.
There’s also a Turkish folk song called A Ya Zein (sp?) that’s a ton of fun to play on shamisen. But good luck finding a clip. Guess I’ll have to play and upload that one too.

Ay ya zein!!!
OMG how i used to LOVE to dance to that one!

Another string instrument with some beautiful music is turkic in distant origin, played by the Uighur people: Dutar, perida kasim if you look up in youtube

Amanda- Oh, no! The music of S/W Asia seems to be taking over the thread! I was hoping to avoid that. Then again, it is great stuff, isn’t it? I’ve seen several dutar clips on YouTube and, you’re right, they are good tunes with stellar grooves.
BTW, whaddaya mean “used to?” Knock the dust off that track! Lol.

FYI: I just received in the mail a brand new setar today! It’s a Persian relative (most likely) of the dutar. Can’t wait till I’m more competent with it.

sounds exciting Chet.

yeah, ‘used to’ i danced up until i damaged the ligaments in my foot, now i have permanent damage. it took me a long time to get to the stage where i ‘might’ be able to dance some japanese stuff once i get my min’you project started. (they came with interesting booklets on how to do the dances that went with the songs)

Agh! I’m really sorry to hear that, Amanda.

Yikes, yeah sorry to hear that Amanda.
Hope there are some dance moves you can find that are not so hard on the parts that are damaged or something.
Everyone who has been contributing here, thanks and sorry i wasn’t able to get back to some of you here, as you might have seen, a lot of new exciting stuff had been popping up in the forum and sometimes it’s easy for good exchanges of ideas to get buried.

Chet , tho Ottoman and other Sultan ones are both so awesome I was totally stoked! I already started trying to pick out some of the melodic content in both of them! Thanks so much for sharing! if I get one of them completely learned I might post it sometime. Awesome stuff!
Liam, that piece Recuerlus de la Alhambra would go very well with Shamisen duet or trio perhaps. Mike Penny has the best tremello technique of Shamisen I have ever heard so I would put him up as a candidate for the trem melody part!

Evyn , I can imagine that titanic song working with like some kind of digital delay and reverb effect making up for the fast decay of the Shamisen note.

As can already be seen, Eric J.s comment on modern composers/music got me thinking about some of the modern composers I have admired and have been influenced by. I have recently been reviewing Some of these composers such as Rzweski, Messaien & Stockhausen who I used to listen to often.

Jamie, thanks for the insights and the comparison to Oud n that vid!

Linda ,
Your idea about harpsichord and the similarities to Shamisen has stuck in my mind now for quite a while. As you say the timbre is similar . This would really be interesting. We’ve tried some Bach inventions already but thre are say the Goldberg variation or things like that as well. Thanks for that insight !

All in all I am really grateful for this exchange of ideas here. The different thoughts here have Definately inspired me to look even further into the possibilities of expressing not just classical music but other possibilities as well! Domo Arigatou !