Full ivory bachi and customs

General
#1

When I was in kyoto, I find a very good full ivory bachi, but I was afraid than I would have problems in the customs, so I didn´t buy.

Anyway, I regret a lot this decision. I bought a good one throught ebay, and as you can see in my video, it have only the last en of ivory. Anyway it is very good constructed, but the wood´s feel / touch its not the same than the ivory´s feel. I think ivory its better.

So, we will have problems in the custom if we bought an ivory´s or bekko´s bachi? I really don´t know, because its a forbidden material for customs, but in the other hand, they are small items.

Anyone knows? :slight_smile:

#2

So, we will have problems in the custom if we bought an ivory´s or bekko’s bachi? … in the other hand, they are small items. Anyone knows? :slight_smile:

Paco, I know a little, but it’s enough to make this a rather long answer. :slight_smile:

Of course, Customs is usually looking for people who are doing illegal things on a large scale. However, under the law, even for a small item, if the material is contraband (illegal), then it is illegal to buy/sell/transport it across borders. If one is caught with it on them or caught importing it (eg, because your parcel got opened by Customs inspectors), Customs won’t care about size. Illegal is illegal, and ivory and bekko/tortoiseshell products are two of many restricted materials.

What products are forbidden, which and how certain materials/plants, etc. can be bought, sold and traded is controlled by the Convention on International Trade of Endangered Species of Flora and Fauna. It is usually just called CITES, pronounced site-eeze. Here is their (complicated :-D) website - www.cites.org. And here is a shorter outline of CITES - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/CITES. About ~175 countries have signed CITES treaties and agreements. The member countries then enforce CITES’s rules by laws that they make in their own country. So you need to check your country’s laws to see what could happen if you were caught.

For an example, here is the situation in Canada. CITES is handled through the Wild Animal and Plant Protection & Regulation of International & Interprovincial Trade Act (WAPPRIITA). Canada’s Department of the Environment is responsible for enforcing CITES rules through that Act. Individuals convicted under WAPPRIITA can face a fine of up to $150,000 or five years in prison. Corporations can face fines of up to $300,000. I think fines and penalties around the world are probably similar to those…

Of course, many people still bring in small items that are restricted. Sometimes they don’t even know that a product is illegal or partially restricted in the first place. (If you look at the lists of them on CITES’s website, they are very l-o-n-g and detailed!). However, in most countries, ignorance of the law is not a valid defence. There is always the risk of getting caught by a random search, by “sniffer” dogs at an airport (I was surprised to find Toronto’s airport using dogs starting about two years ago…), etc. So everybody has to decide for themselves if it’s worth it to put that item (eg. ivory bachi, bekko koma, hair clip, etc.) in their luggage or to have it shipped to them. It probably turns out okay most of the time, but you just never know… And as long as people do keep bringing in that “one small item”, the animals will continue to be killed and/or become extinct - something else to keep in mind, because it was the reason for the restrictions in the first place.

#3

You know, there is a vegetable substitute for ivory. (I REALLY hope that NO one is making ivory bachi anymore, and that the only ones out there are old!)

Anyhow, something for bachi makers to consider, so we don’t have customs problems anymore, and we don’t have to kill animals - tagua, instead of ivory. It is darn near identical!

#4

well said :slight_smile:

and btw though there is no difference between 10 sheets of cat skin and cat skin on a “traditional” instrument or something like that? I just seem to faintly remember someone else giving information about this issue earlier and saying that it could be viewed differently if you import an ivory horn or it’s a piece of ivory integrated in a traditional instrument and/or an instrument that was already built 30 years ago or so . . . ? so could that be a factor or is it simply about the material without regard to in which context it is used?

#5

I don’t know about anyone else, but I still feel uncomfortable about cruelty in any form, be it old or new. But, my feeling in this case was that I will not make it any worse by purchasing something that was made years ago when we as a society didn’t know any better, and was actually made for someone else. I would never, ever contribute, though, to any new industry by buying a new product that is a result of cruelty to animals today. I don’t know, it’s a conundrum because I keep going back and forth on my feelings.

About ivory, though - I will NEVER ever buy ivory, old or new. I don’t why it’s different in my mind, but there it is. I can’t examine it too much, or my tiny brain will explode, lol.

Also, the only alternative was my horrible plastic bachi that I dropped twice, and is now all deformed since I tried to sand it back into shape, lol.

#6

I REALLY hope that NO one is making ivory bachi anymore, and that the only ones out there are old!

Lorraine, craftspeople are definitely still making new ivory and bekko bachi (and other items) these days, and there is an active market for it, especially within Japan/Asia. Of course, there are some old bachi, too, and it’s fairly easy to tell the difference with ivory ones (thanks to the discoloration…)

Anyhow, something for bachi makers to consider… - tagua, instead of ivory. It is darn near identical!

Thanks for that info - never heard of it before. We need someone here to make a bachi from tagau to test it out! :slight_smile:

and btw though there is no difference between 10 sheets of cat skin and cat skin on a “traditional” instrument or something like that? …

BH, it’s an extremely complicated set of regulations, and if you’re really curious (and have a large supply of sake, or coffee, or your preferred drink on hand!), you can sit down for about 18 hours and read through it all for, um, entertainment. :wink: In brief: trade in certified antique material and/or products is allowed under certain conditions (and may only be certified by specific people/organizations, etc.). Ditto the use of some of the restricted/forbidden materials in “traditional/cultural” practices, (which are supposed to be practices defined as per CITES criteria - but this is a popular “loophole” that a number of places try to use to claim exemption from CITES restrictions…). Products may perhaps be allowable in one format (using your example, sheets) but not in another. Again, what is allowed and what isn’t is country-dependent, since each country enforces CITES in their own specific ways.

If you want that ivory or bekko bachi, etc., it still all comes comes down to “caveat emptor” (look it up, non-Latin scholars), because at the end of the day, as a general statement, ivory and bekko products are verboten for now.

#7

I looked up the tagua, and the nuts are kind of small for as large as a bachi is - they’d either need to be layered and glued, (lots of extra work), or you would probably have to just utilize them in certain places, like the handle or the tip of the blade. (Again, lots of work.)

I actually loved the feel of my plastic bachi, except that it was too big, and is now deformed, lol. I think plastic or resin is a fine alternative to ivory, as it feels very nice in the hand. Chris Farina is experimenting with the guitar pick material for the blades, so he will let us know how that works out.

Another member has actually made elk and buffalo horn bachi (they just drop off, so no cruelty there) with wooden handles, and those are beautiful! (I wonder if he would consider making and selling a few). Perhaps he could carve the handle using tagua as part of it, or coat the handle with resin, making it smooth and cool.

Seriously, we need to think of some more merciful alternatives, and encourage other shamisen players to use them, and then we as a shamisen society will not need to worry about customs, traveling with restricted materials, or our own consciences. (Which just made me realize! Should I ever decide to travel to Japan and bring my shamisen, I will NOT be able to bring my bekkou/bone bachi with me!) :stuck_out_tongue:

#8

To be shamelessly devil’s advocate in using vegetables to prevent animal cruelty. Wouldn’t that be cruel to the vegetables? What about the poor Tagua who has to give up his nuts for our art form? :wink:

Partially joking of course, but just throwing that out there if we want to bring philosophy into the mix.

#9

wooow amazing answers!! thanks to all!

$150,000 or five years in prison… ummm, know I see I do the good thing…

And I think too than killing animals for doing a bachi it is not good. I will investigate the nuts stuff. But they are small so, how I can do a bachi with this nuts? can I melt or something? Anyway I didn´t star doing my own shamisen so… XD

I am happy cause I see I do the right choice. And my bachi its good for my level so :slight_smile: :slight_smile: :slight_smile:

#10

Well, it’s actually healthy for the tagua to give up his … :stuck_out_tongue: nuts, painful though it may sound. :wink:

Paco - I was looking up the tagua, and it seems if they are pretty small for something as large as a bachi (Maybe the size of the palm of someone’s hand?) It looks as if you could maybe make a bachi blade, or perhaps just the handle portion, but the rest would have to be carved and attached or staked somehow, or carved with notches, and then glued together? Or maybe sliced, and then used for the surface area only? (I’m SOO not a carpenter.)

But I do think there are other alternatives. I, for one LOVE the handle part of my plastic bachi. I just hated the size, and the blade. But the plastic feels so good - smooth and cool, and that bachi was extremely heavy. And once I had carved a niche in the side of it for my pinky, it was very comfortable.

I would carve a notch in my bekkou/bone one, but it is far too valuable. What I WOULD like to do is make a wooden/horn one, like Michael Oullette did, and then carve the notch in it for my pinky. The notch REALLY works!

I met Greg Walsh (G Shamisen) in Los Angeles last weekend, and HE ALSO notches his bachi! He had the exact same notches in his that I had put in mine! I was happy to see that I had instinctually done something right, lol.

Here is what I did to my CHEAP bachi!

And here is Michael’s thread, showing the horn and wooden bachi that he made. He says they play comparably to bekkou bachi, and even has a video example.

YEY!! Glad we talked you out of ivory, Paco! :slight_smile: You are a good man! And we’ll keep everyone out of trouble with customs, once we get the word out as well.

#11

I don’t care if I get ivory or not, but considering us humans would still be climbing around like monkeys if we didn’t start making tools and clothes out of other animals, I can’t deny that we still utilize animals for our purposes as long as there is no alternative.

I would probably be happy enough with a fibersen, so my next skin will spare the dogs because there is imo a suitable substitute. But I respect those that see it otherwise. It is their decision.

And if you are religious, don’t forget that God clearly states that all the animals belong to man. (I am not religious, but this argument has to work on those who are Christians!)

I am looking forward to seeing what this vegetable nut substitute results in! Meanwhile I am definately happy with my flexible plastic one.

Out of curiousity. If I bring a koma made of ivory along with my shamisen when I travel. Would I then be taking part in illegal activities? I can’t believe it would be like that.

#12

If I bring a koma made of ivory along with my shamisen when I travel. Would I then be taking part in illegal activities? <

I would think yes. There is no size limit, so however small the piece of ivory is, it’s still ivory.

As Linda said earlier

Customs won’t care about size. Illegal is illegal, and ivory and bekko/tortoiseshell products are two of many restricted materials.<

I wouldn’t risk it. If I ever go to Japan, I’m going SANS bekkou bachi. I wouldn’t want to risk getting arrested, or even detained.

The tagua WOULD be large enough for a koma - why not try carving a tagua koma?

#13

Just on a whim, has anyone actually traveled through an airport and had trouble because of their bachi, koma, or shamisen? I’ll be traveling soon and am debating bringing mine for the trip…

#14

I would carve a notch in my bekkou/bone one, but it is far too valuable. What I WOULD like to do is make a wooden/horn one, like Michael Oullette did, and then carve the notch in it for my pinky. The notch REALLY works!

I met Greg Walsh (G Shamisen) in Los Angeles last weekend, and HE ALSO notches his bachi! He had the exact same notches in his that I had put in mine! I was happy to see that I had instinctually done something right, lol.

Here is what I did to my CHEAP bachi!

http://i.imgur.com/Vw9oKeYl.jpg

And here is Michael’s thread, showing the horn and wooden bachi that he made. He says they play comparably to bekkou bachi, and even has a video example.

YEY!! Glad we talked you out of ivory, Paco! :slight_smile: You are a good man! And we’ll keep everyone out of trouble with customs, once we get the word out as well.

Wow really nice! thanks a lot for the info!

I really think that all thouse ivory´s bachis are old, but if they still do bachis… well, this doesnt sound good… :frowning:

When I know my bachi its made from a cat´s skin… well, it makes me sad. I will use fibersen when my shamisen´s skins broke.

You really are good also Lorraine, I really be grateful for your help! :slight_smile:

I will see the link from Michael :slight_smile:

#15

Hey everyone!

Thought I’d add my experiences traveling to and from Japan with ivory.

My shamisen has ivory itomaki, and when I was traveling to Japan, I had several ivory koma with me as well. Since I bought these from a Japanese antique store here in the US, I asked the seller to write a letter/appraisal stating that the items were indeed pre-cites items. He wrote that he believed they were from early-mid Meiji on his company letterhead, and included his formal Japanese Antiques License number.

I headed to Japan with every intent to buy an ivory bachi. It’s a must-have for serious nagauta playing/performance. The sound ivory makes is much more beautiful, and cleaner than anything. Some plastic bachi can come close, especially the new “fake ivory” bachi that they’ve manufactured out of plastic, but it is still not the same and is somewhat ironically the same price as a used ivory bachi.

One older shamisen dealer in Japan flat-out refused to sell me ivory because he was afraid that it would be confiscated. Another store tried to dissuade me from purchasing it because they were worried for the same reason, but more-so that they would feel very badly if I bought it from them and had it taken away - essentially a loss of A LOT of money. However, customs agents aren’t particularly aware that some shamisen use ivory quite often.

All of the professional nagauta shamisen players who come to the US from Japan wouldn’t dream of not performing with ivory bachi and koma. The sound that ivory produces is so much finer than anything else. When I ask what they’ve done when/if customs opens their shamisen case, they say they always reply that ‘the good stuff’ is plastic, and swear its worked every time.

Eventually, I convinced the shamisen store to sell me an ivory bachi by telling them about the letter I had stating the itomaki and koma were antique. I told them that if customs asked about my bachi, I had planned on telling them that it was the koma mentioned in the antique dealer’s letter. Lo and behold though, I had no issues getting in or out of Japan with quite a few ivory accessories. New ivory is very expensive in Japan, an ivory nagauta bachi goes for over 1,000 USD new for one made from 2 or 3 pieces of ivory. The bachi made from a single piece of ivory go from 2-3,000 USD. gulp Used however, one can find them for a few hundred bucks! If you buy one used, sometimes you can even get certification that it is indeed pre-cites ivory from the seller!

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