Justification of Shamisens cost compaire to other Instruments.

General
#1

So I have made a Shamisen, Gottan, Guitars, Ukuleles, Harps, Flat Lutes, Mountain banjos, and a few other instruments over the past ten years of my life. The Shamsen has alot more in common with the 3 string Mcnally Strumsticks and such instruments then the others.

This instrument is a ton of wood carving work to make I agree, but I just don’t see the craftsmanship level of Lutes, Guitars, and Harps to justify 1k to 3k for these instruments.

Can one really justify that price? besides promoting a unique instrument from japan and then price gouging the people interested in playing it?

I mean a Lute, Guitar, or a Harp is way harder to construct in general.

1 Like
#2

Are you sure there is such a price difference ? I own a beautiful old flamenco Conde Hermanos guitar which the current price would be about $ 4,000. This is more than the price of a nice kouki shamisen which would be roughly the same level of quality, right ?

#3

Aside from many factors, Tsugaru Shamisen is also a quite rare craft even in Japan. Coupled with the 3 - 4 interlocking joints (if you have mitsu ori), rarity of materials, and specialized skill required in the traditional methods of applying the skin to the body, you’ve got a few reasons to be expensive. But it’s like anything really, if you want to craft to go on, you must pay for it. Otherwise it’s possible to take the raw materials of high quality and make one yourself for much cheaper (if you have the tools). But in doing so you are forgoing the knowledge of those craftsman and the tricks they have learned.
It’s a toss up, but thanks to Kyle, there’s a relatively low barrier to entry.

#4

entry price is still a bit of a problem compared to other sort of similar instruments I agree I mean I bought a very decent sounding guitar once for 40 or 60 euros and made it available second hand at some point later for 20 or so … sure this was possibly made without love or hands on craftsmanship specialtiy for which I think whatever higher price can be fair and you don’t currently have the economies of scale for a shamisen of whatever kind that you can have with ‘some’ guitar on the market but still I would appreciate a 100 dollar or euro thing that may not sound like a ‘concert’ worthy shamisen but is fully functioning for practice and camp fire sessions . . . :slight_smile:

#5

BH, I’m not sure a 40 or 60 euros guitar sounds better than a 5000 or 8000 yen shamisen (on ebay or yahoo auctions, for example)…

#6

Besides from the three Joints of the Sao, and the rare wood. I don’t see the justification of 2-3k for these instruments. I see that same quality of craftsmanship on the student Shamisens as some of the others for 1K+ .

You can buy student quality Lutes for 1k and they are another world of skill required to put together. Lute ribs are harder then an entire shamisen construction.

I asked a few of the Guild of American Luthiers who also sell Shamisen Plans, and they agree.

lol I am surprised the cheap Pakistan Shamisens are not on ebay like all the other crap-tastic instruments they make!

#7

And that’s why there’s the Beginner’s Shamisen for only $300. :slight_smile: - http://bachido.com/store/beginner-shamisen

Beyond construction/material costs, there is a considerable price markup once the shamisen reaches the marketplace. More than anything, I believe the reason is because shamisen retailers believe “Higher price = higher quality.”

Thus, when I went to a shamisen maker and told him my desire of having an affordable shamisen available for beginners to start on, the response was, “It’s impossible to sell shamisen that cheaply. Nobody will want it.” That was basically it. :wink: It almost felt like they were deluded by their own business paradigm. In fact, there’s a rule among shamisen retailers, there is a price floor which they’re not allowed to sell below.

Well, I think that’s ridiculous, and am lucky to have met a contact in Japan who feels the same way. That’s why we’re able to provide Beginner’s Shamisen (which sounds far better than most entry-level shamisen I’ve heard) at a price much lower than any shamisen in Japan.

It’s true, shamisen really aren’t that difficult to make. In fact, a master in Japan once told me, “Even furniture makers can make decent shamisen.” I think the problem/reason really lies in the old school business paradigm of ‘higher price = greater value’ which gets rationalized to a ridiculous degree.

In closing, I’ll add that from what a master told me, the costliest and most time consuming part of the process is the lacquering/polishing the shamisen. Basically, as makers, they’re looking at the shamisen beyond a musical instrument and viewing it as a visual work of art. There’s nothing wrong with that, and they do a wonderful job. Truly, these expensive shamisen are visually flawless. But I think it becomes a problem when the focus leans too far on visual aesthetics.

I bet many shamisen players wouldn’t care so much about the polish because sound is their primary focus. However, because most makers often don’t play shamisen themselves, the thought of cheaper lacquer is unthinkable. Seemingly, their priority towards visual aesthetic is a bit mismatched with the players. (Furthermore, shamisen makers discourage direct communication with players, further widening the gap)

Fortunately, I’ve spoken to a young shamisen maker and player who both agree, they too felt shamisen are more expensive than necessary. So, as long as the future generation of makers feel this way, I think the path forward is looking bright. :slight_smile:

*I’ll note this isn’t the case for all makers/players, only for those I’ve come across in my own limited experience.

#8

And of course, that’s why you’re a baws, Kyle.

#9

Hehe, I do what I can. :stuck_out_tongue:
Good to see you back on the forum, buddy!

#10

Thanks for that information Kyle.

That’s kinda what I was thinking in lines of art and not an instrument. A few of the old renaissance Lute makes felt the same way about their craft.

Has many of the student Shams sold?

Terry

#11

No problem. It’s a great question to bring up! :slight_smile:

Since first releasing the Beginner’s Shamisen in Jan 2015 (Whew, time flies…), we’ve sent about 50, fulfilling orders from US, Canada, Finland, New Zealand, Austria, Australia, Thailand and South Africa. It’s gettin’ around! :slight_smile:

#12

Wow that’s what I call spreading the shamisen vibe . . . :slight_smile:

#13

Very interesting, if potentially tricky conversation, I think.

I used to have a Grit (William) Laskin Flamenco guitar. When I first bought it at least 20 years ago it cost $3000 (all Canadian dollars, mind) and there was a 2 year long waiting list to get one. Maybe 6 years ago I sold it for around $5700 through 12th Fret out of Toronto (they probably sold it for $7000 or something like that. I’m sure that his new ones must be going for 10 or 12,000 now and this is for an instrument without his exquisite inlay work. He said that he charged somewhat more for his Classical/Flamenco guitars than his steel string because it is what the classical players expected. Too cheap = less good. A concept well expressed in earlier posts here. Sheesh. I would’ve paid less with no creeping thoughts of cheapness at all!

Are one of his guitars worth $12,000? Hell, yeah, if you have the cash.

I studied and played Viola for many years. My final viola was really nice but in reality was what might be called a somewhat high end-ish student model. The viola was around $2000 at the time and the bow was $650. It was a lovely instrument and I played and recorded with it for a number of years.

Once when I was in residency at the Banff Centre, there were some utterly world class musicians coming through and doing a concert. Maybe there were 6 of them in the ensemble. Barry Shiffman (a world class violinist/violist himself), the artistic director at the time, called out to me as I was walking by before the concert. ‘Hey Catherine’ he says ‘come in here for a minute’ as he motioned me towards the green room. He says, ‘take a look… there is at least 3 million dollars (USD!!) worth of instruments in this room right now!’

I reckon if you don’t have a lot of cash at hand and want to play guitar, get one of those factory made ones or a beat up one or something and it’ll do just fine. Hell, some of those trashed guitars have an awesome unique sound all their own. Likewise with the shamisen. The beginners Shamisen looks totally great and at a fine price.

If you have a bit of cash to throw around, why not get something up the scale a little more and if you’re bloody rich, well, find some individual artist/artisan and support that person. No doubt, he/she could use the support. My presumption is that there ain’t no instrument builder out there putting in a new swimming pool with their next commission.

Strangely enough, the image that has suddenly popped into my head is of a bunch of lawyers and hedge-fund managers out for lunch…

#14

I forgot to add… make your own instrument!! That’s the best of all.

#15

I think there are at least two major factors affecting shamisen prices. 1) Japanese psychology. Japanese always want the best available–I think it is party of their identity–‘I deserve the finest.’ Shamisen artisans are happy to oblige, making very beautiful stuff. Some shamisens even have some very quiet decorations, and beautiful finish, so the instrument looks as good as it sounds. 2) The artisans are facing rising prices for many (or most?) of the materials. They are not eager to substitute cheaper materials. At the same time, because the instruments are made by hand, there is a limit to the number of units one person can produce in a year, and they need to make a living. At high levels of artisanship, they deserve something more than just a living wage. Anyone who has visited Japan knows that the cost of living is high. Personally, I appreciate the high artisanship of these instruments. I suppose the best strategy is to search for used instruments, like e-bay or whatever.

#16

Does anyone knows that a good guitar lifespan to get the best sound out of it is around 20 years?

I’m wondering if it is not longer with the shamisen as the sounds also depends a lot on the skin too…

#17

In my experience, there are two factors that contribute to the sound quality of a shamisen . 1) Density of wood in the neck. Without frets, the finger is holding the string directly on the wood of the neck. This has a dampening effect on the vibration of the string. Very dense wood can counterbalance this effect to some extent, by ‘reflecting’ the vibrations, rather than absorbing them. this is why shitan and koki are considered the best. (It’s unfortunate that these woods have become rare and expensive.) 2. The quality of the leather and the stretching job. The tightest stretch will give the best sound, but it will break quicker. Shamisen pros (users of cat skin, in the classic world, not so much in Tsugaru, which uses dog skin, I believe) follow this model–they are willing to keep reskinning their instruments as often as it takes to keep them tightly stretched.

#18

Ah, that brings to mind a few thoughts…

  1. Reigen and I were talking about the subject of kouki while he was here. From his studies of sound physics, he believes that though a kouki (or ebony) ) top surface will indeed reflect the vibrations, a solid kouki sao is actually not the best for sound quality. I forget the specifics, but according to him, the solid mass of heavy kouki doesn’t transfer the vibrations as well as lighter wood. Thus for him, the ideal sao is made from a softer base (karin, maple) with a hard fingerboard (kouki, ebony).
    Unfortunately, I think the use of a full kouki sao is still being promoted as the best wood for shamisen by the makers of shamisen. Not because it actually is, but because that notion became instilled in their paradigm, and they’re unable to think outside of it.

  2. I too like the tone of a tightly stretched skin, but I think the classical pros can take it a little too far. It’s funny to hear the perspective from one of the leather stretchers I know, when they talk about classical players come in to have their shamisen reskinned. Basically, once the performer just finished a concert, they want to have their shamisen reskinned before the next show on the following day. Well, the stretcher told me, “After they give me the dou, I tap the skin and know it can’t get better than it is. It’s already so fresh and stretched to the limit. They’re willing to pay more, so I replace it, but It’s frustrating that I’ll have to risk breaking a new skin just to get the same sound.”

When standards and expectations get that high, I think it becomes a mental game more than anything else. We can so easily trick ourselves with details as fine as that. (Like professional classical players could believe they can hear the sound degrade between concerts) In fact, this video probably expresses my feeling best. :stuck_out_tongue:

#19

As I noticed last year there is a Starbucks in Salzburg across Mozart’s house of birth where they just put that clip supposed to be late night comedy into action as for their pricing policy charging about that for a cup of regular coffee … although that day there was the first opportunity for a friend and I to sit down for morning coffee outside after a taxi ride to the old town and a serious john daniels hangover :slight_smile:

Cafe Tomaselli (also quite expensive but always nice upper floor outside) is 3 minutes of walking further :slight_smile:

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