Using...a bow?

Playing/Techniques
#1

I’m sorry if this question is a little (okay, maybe a lot) crazy, but I have really been wondering about it! Is it possible to play a Shamisen with…a bow? By bow, I mean like you do with a Violin. I am not very good with the technical aspects of instruments, but from what I can tell, it should be possible? I know it goes against tradition, but I really wonder if it’s possible and how it would sound. That’s probably because I come from a Viola background though.

What do you guys think? Thanks so much!

#2

There’s the Kokyuu, which was discussed recently in another thread, which is essentially a miniature Shamisen that’s played with a bow. I think you could technically do it, but you’d have to maybe have a custom made koma to position the strings in a way that is bow friendly. Might also be a little awkward to hold. Welcome to Bachido. :slight_smile:

#3

Hello Eric, and thank you for the welcome! I’m so sorry, I didn’t realize the Kokyuu was recently discussed. But I am also really new to the world of traditional Japanese instruments.

I am strongly interested in learning the Shamisen, but often my 8 years of playing Viola back in school comes to mind and I wonder if I could try some bowed pieces as a side project.

I would have to imagine bowing would be simular to a cello, but sitting in your lap? It might be more awkward with a large tsugaru, but I wonder if one of the smaller types of Shamisen might work well? Instead of just getting the traditional Kokyuu, it would be nice to have a shamisen that can be played either way.

That said…where would you find a custom made koma? Do you think they would be expensive?

#4

Hey, I wasn’t criticizing, I just meant there might be some leads for you in some of the recent discussions, I couldn’t remember which one, but I’m pretty sure it was in the thread for the bachicast episode 12.

I couldn’t tell you about where to look into a custom koma, but I imagine it’s as expensive as you want it to be, depending on the materials. I mention it because I believe on western bowed instruments the middle strings are elevated a bit compared to the outer ones, and with a tsugaru koma they’re flush. You might look into how the strings are arranged on a kokyuu, because I’m not sure.

#5

Please don’t worry, no critisizing taken. ^^" I was appologising because I really should have searched around topics discussed already a bit more before I posted. I appreciate your insight very much, in fact it really lit the lightbulb for me. I am really loving the idea of a Shamisen that I could switch between bow and bachi. It might allow me to play a greater variety of music. If anything, producing two different sounds would be so interesting!

I hope I can figure out where I would be able to have a custom koma made for such a thing, but first I need to sit back and get through the beginner phase of learning a new instrument before I get any more ahead of myself.

#6

By the way I just noticed you are in Chiba!! Small world, huh? Nice to know another person in Japan with an interest in the Shamisen. :slight_smile:

#7

Yep, I’m living in Kaihin Makuhari right now, the most un-Japanese part of Japan I’ve come across. It’s weird living in a futuristic ghost town. I’ve only got about a month and a half left in the country though.
The idea of bowing a shamisen is actually something that had been running through my mind a few days back, but since I don’t have any experience with bowed instruments, I figured that it’d be a long ways off before I might try it. I say go for it though, what’s the worst that could happen?

#8

Ah, that’s a shame you’ll be leaving Japan, but I understand. I’m sure i’ll meet other local Shamisen folks eventually, especially as my Japanese improves. As far as I can tell, I am here for the long-term.

I played the Viola for about 8 years through school, but haven’t played since I graduated in 2004, yikes! But it’s possible I still have a good feel for bowing, I would love to give it a try. I just have this gut feeling that bowing will come more naturally to me, but I will have to try to see. I wonder what kind of bow would be appropriate. So much to research!

But when I get the chance i’ll be sure to post about it. ^^ Might be a while though.

#9

Hi Evyn and Eric,

Evyn,
Welcome to bachido. I wanted to just let you know that playing Shamisen with a bow is not only possible but has been done many times. I have done it on stage for a laugh (with a violin bow) as well as spending quite a bit of time simply exploring the bowing in practice. My fiancé played violin (I am sure she still “plays” but we broke our engagement earlier this year and I haven’t really talked to her since) and I used to use the bow from her violin on my shamisen. I have seen and heard other players doing it too but unfortunately I could not find any videos to post with an example.

Here’s what My personal experience was like.

A violin bow bowed across the strings of a shamisen produces a very quiet humming tone.
The biggest issue is the most obvious one, the fact that the strings are flat and not rounded like a violin or viola etc. basically in my experience it is only really possible to bow the outter strings
(as already mentioned, a curved koma would help)

Because the sound produced is so quiet it may seem a bit impractical. But there is a solution to this as well. Again, a fairly obvious one… Amplification. Mugen 21 electric shamisen as well as the benya models from a few years ago work to different degrees.

My guess is that we haven’t seen bowed shamisen publically much because it seems that the Japanese mind is detrimentally obsessed with placing everything in its proper “category”. In other words, a kokyu is played with a bow. a Shamisen is played with a bachi. end of story… Then when you say to them…" but that’s really quite silly isn’t it? I mean if something is possible than it is possible right?"
They simply grit their teeth, sigh deeply and give off a sense of frustration as if to say… “stupid gaijin just don’t get it!”

Sorry. That’s just one thing I really hate about being here in Japan. But I hope you get my point. If Shamisen were placed in the hands of a different society bowed Shamisen concerts or recordings may already something like the “norm”.

#10

P.s. are you familiar with the Mongolian horse head fiddle?
When I first met masahiro Nitta he was jamming on his Shamisen using a horse head fiddle bow. Sounds pretty neat as well.

#11

P.s.s. Eric,
I’m bummed to hear you are leaving Japan so soon.

#12

I had a feeling you were going to show up and say you’d already done it. :stuck_out_tongue:
It seems weird that it would be quiet, as I can’t keep the volume down with a bachi, and I don’t remember kokyu being particularly quiet either. It’s nice having access to a teacher and shamisen stuff, but I’m kind of looking forward to being able to play without feeling guilty about the noise…

Slightly off-topic, but does Beniya still make their electric shamisens and what do you think of them? It’s a ways out from me, but I was thinking about taking a look at that shop sometime while I’m in the country.

Edit: Yeah, me too, but I’m already scheming to come back next year. Probably not to Tokyo though, it suffocates me sometimes…

#13

Nice to meet you Kevin! Nice to meet another person in the land of the rising sun! I know what you mean about the Gaijin stuff and things in their place, I guess that’s the only reason things like the Shamisen still exist. They try not to mess with their cultural heritage, and I can completely understand! But as for the Gaijin stuff, so-far I have been very lucky to meet a lot of open-minded Japanese folks. I think it comes down to who you meet. Japan is a mix of old and new thinking and it’s always luck of the draw. You never know, there could be people in Japan who are open minded to a bowed Shamisen! Likely in the younger generation though…but I have met the occasional open-minded older person too. It might help to come across as a contemporary/artist player and not lead them to expect the traditional stuff, maybe? After all, we have the Yoshida Brothers mixing Shamisen and rock, right?

I really appreciate your insight on a bowed Shamisen. If I may ask, did you run the bow directly across the skin area or a little higher? Finding videos of a Kokyuu has been difficult, but of what I could find, I noticed they bow quite high. About at the top of the sound box, sorry I can’t recall the proper name of that part. I wonder if that has an affect on the sound projection? Or perhaps it needs more heavy resin to produce a stronger sound?

I also wonder if a curved koma would affect the strength of the sound, but at the very least it would make all the strings playable.

It would be a DREAM to have an electric shamisen, but finding one and being able to AFFORD one is another story all together. I would love an electric Viola for nostalgic reasons as well, but that’s another story…

I am not familiar with the Mongolian horse head fiddle, it sounds interesting! I’ll have to go Google it here in a second.

I am really interested into looking further into the idea of bowing a Shamisen, I love the idea of having such a versatile instrument. I would love to be able to use a bow or bachi for different songs and moods, and only have to change the koma!

You woulden’t happen to know where or how I could get a curved koma, would you?

#14

Hey Eric ,

Haha, yeah!
Well I haven’t been in touch with the benya people lately . I’ll probably look em up here I’m a minute. I Know a lot of people
Hate how the fully electric ones are kind of fake or whatever cause they can’t sound like a fully traditional one but I personally love the full electric Shamisens. It really depends on personal aesthetic and stuff but if you are curious I would say Definately go check it out!

#15

Oh hey Evyn,
Haha. We must have been writing at the same time. Didn’t see your response until I had posted one.
Yes the place where a kokyu is bowed is the same spot I had used to bow. Its really a bit Impossible to get it to work over the duo.
As far as making a curved koma.

Well… Two words. . .

Kyle Abbott.

Oh Kyle, I think we just might have a question for ya buddy!

#16

You know it just hit me…i’ve seen loads of your videos Kevin! I love your Star Wars Medley! So great to meet you!! Your videos are great inspiration for me.

I think I have bugged…I mean talked to Kyle a tiny bit via YouTube, fiddlefella right? He suggested I get on here, and I wasn’t sure if I should since I am a nearly complete beginner to the Shamisen and only have “newb” questions. But here I am!

Now how do we get him here to discuss the idea of a curved koma? ^^ I know i’m way ahead of myself being a beginner with a trial lesson on Friday, but it’s extreemly motivational for me to think about being able to use a bow as well as the standard bachi.

#17

Yeah, totally can’t afford another instrument at the moment, but if the electric ones gel with me they’re a possibility for the nearer future than one of Katoh-san’s babies. Curious though, so I might plan a day trip out there.
The ability to plug in is appealing to me because it would make playing in jam settings more accessible.

#18

Thanks Evyn,
Don’t stess about having “newb” questions. It seems universally understood by all of us who join this website that it really actually exists for us all to share info. So any question is good really! And I think this is actually an interesting topic. In fact since we started talking about this I have become inspired to go talk to my uncle later who I seem to recall owning a violin, or at least a bow.

Eric, dude! I wish I could go with you (day trip to electric Shamisen land). Damn!

#19

Thanks Kevin! If your uncle can lend you a bow, and you can get around the issue of a curved koma, I would love to see you do a video of a bowed Shamisen! What got me thinking about it was my interest in figuring out how to play My Heart Will Go On from Titanic on the Shamisen as beautifully and romantically as possible (I am a mushy romantic like that) and somewhere in there my Viola roots got mixed in (something like “if only I could just bow it! I understand the concept of bowing”) and there you have it. haha

I’m REALLY wishing I brought my Viola to Japan…I feel so stupid leaving it behind in Missouri. face palm I thought I was finished with playing music but I just coulden’t call it quits apparently. Hopefully I can talk someone in my family into sending it across eventually. It would be nice to work with it while i’m learning Shamisen.

#20

Evyn,
I was thinking the same thing. I mean it seems like posting a bowed Shamisen vid is like one of those things that’s just so obvious that nobody thinks of doing it. I hope that made sense.

Anyway I’m calling it for now.
Good night everyone or oyasumi as they say!

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