Using...a bow?

Playing/Techniques
#21

GAh!! I am sooo behind on Bachido threads! (behind, being 24 hours :wink: ) I got a lot of catching up to do today.

Evyn, welcome, welcome, welcome! :smiley: Glad you have joined in the fun!

I believe the koyku uses a curved koma, am I right?

Here we go! - http://www.3408.co.jp/e-comm/images/i11089.jpg :slight_smile:

That would be a cool way to turn a shamisen into a kokyuu-like model, though I’m not sure how the rosin would affect the string when going back to bachi.

A long time ago, we tried bowing a fretless banjo, and noticed that the rosin stuck on the string and made it gritty.

#22

Great idea using a kokyuu koma, Kyle! But it woulden’t be too small for a full sized shamisen? I wonder?

I had the same thought about the strings, and my solution idea was to also change the strings. So to have a dedicated set of strings just for bowing. I guess if you needed to change fast for a performance or something, you could bring two shamisen. ^^

#23

Hurray home from work!

New idea, coulden’t you wipe the strings after bowing? I know resin is sticky stuff, but maybe wiping with a slightly damp towl would help prevent the gritty sound if you wanted to go back to bachi. If that doesen’t work I guess worst-case like I said above, you could have strings only used for bowing.

I also wonder now, could you still use a bachi if the Shamisen has a curved Kokyuu koma? I am guessing it’s possible if you can adjust to the curved shape.

It would be so neat to be able to switch between bowing and the bachi for different songs! How fun!

#24

While we’re on the topic of bowed Asian instruments…I just had to share this! It really picks up at 2:45. It it great for showing the difference between the Japanese Kokyu and the Chinese Erhu.

#25

Evyn K,
Er uh and kokyuu! Awesome!
Hey! I got a hold of a bow and made a video demonstrating what bowed Shamisen sounds like. I’m really excited about this and want to post a link here but am hesitating because in the past I always get told not to post a link to something right after it is uploaded. Not sure how long I have to wait but if you want to check it out it is up now at
www.youtube.com/shamisendemon

#26

Hey Kevin! I just watched your video, amazing!!! It has just the sound I was hoping for, a bit deeper then the Koyku! Thank you so much!! Please don’t worry about bowing skills, it really gave me a great idea of what to expect. I bet with some resin and some practice, it could actually be a very beautiful sound. I tend to dislike the high “squeeky” sounds Kokyu and Violins naturally make, which is why I chose the Viola and in this case would love to bow a Shamisen.

You almost got my name right, it’s pronounced like the name Evan, or “Evin” or “Even” is good. I know it’s a weird girls name, but ah well! I guess I should have also just written out my last name, I thought I could edit it later - oops. My last name is Koyama (my husbands Japanese) which can confuse people sometimes. You don’t need to change anything on your video, just thought I would mention it since you went out of your way to make a video…and mention it’s for me! Thanks so much! Also my YouTube name is sakutama3

I’m really exited about this even more now! When I can afford to buy my own (and first!) Shamisen finding a Koyku koma and a bow will be first on my to-do list. I would love to practice this technique alongside what I will be learning in the traditional bachi playing methods.

#27

I really like the Kokyu and Erhu video, that was really cool.
Also why is Kevin so awesome?
Should be interesting to see how this plays out.

#28

an interesting sound bowed shamisen I could at least imagine this could bring something very cool to a rocking ensemble piece with other intruments . . . and maybe even solo . . . :slight_smile:

wow I wasn’t aware of this kokyuu thing as for me I am not attracted to bowing anything even though I like the music but like you Evyn I am put off by the general high pitch sound of in my case the ukulele . . . although I would like something about that size or at least somewhat smaller than a regular shamisen so until the shamilele or whatever is in the bachido store I wondered what the kokyuu would sound when plucked with a bachi or whatever plektrum? I am thinking about getting a sanshin and wonder whether to consider a kokyuu as an alternative sure enough as for its looks I would prefer it over a sanshin :slight_smile:

#29

Kevin already did that too! This is his video of him playing the Kokyu with a bachi.

It’s fun to play around and experiment with these traditional instruments - no harm done as long as we don’t forget the original stuff, in my humble opinion. ^^

#30

But on a side note about bowing the Shamisen…

I just noticed in Kevin’s video (above) when he using the bachi to play the Kokyu, that the koma is down lower on the body like it would be on a Shamisen. When the Kokyu is played normally, the koma is very high in other videos I have seen. When Kevin played the Shamisen with the bow, the koma was in it’s normal position lower on the body. I wonder if the position of the koma has an influence on the sound produced with the bow or bachi? I can’t tell from the video, but maybe Kevin used a Shamisen koma for the Kokyu to play it like a Shamisen?

By the way I love the sound of the Kokyu being played with a bachi!! When it’s bowed it is nice but…arg like I said before I love bowed instruments but prefer a deeper sound. Viola, Cello…a bowed Shamisen hopefully. ^^"

#31

Hi Evyn,
Yes. Good observations. That was indeed a regular Shamisen koma on the kokyuu.
And wow! You are right. After reading above post I just broke out the Shami again and moved the bridge up to where it is usually placed on a kokyuu. It does indeed Improve the tone slightly. Of course that isn’t saying much considering it is coming from someone with almost no bowing skills whatsoever.

At some point maybe I’ll actually work on this a bit more and post another vid.
Funny that this is suddenly becoming something I am getting into.
I mean considering that prior to one day ago (before you posted)
Playing Shamisen with a bow was not something I thought about throughout the day…ever.

Just goes to show the magic of asking questions and sharing ideas.
Thank God for this site. (and by “God” I mean Kyle of course!)Haha.

#32

That’s great Kevin! I’m exited your looking into it, I honestly figured I would be the only one working on it once I could buy a Shamisen to play with. It’s a shame we aren’t closer on the island, I have a little bowing skill and would love to give it a try. It’s been ages since I played Viola, but hey…it could be like riding a bike and i’ll pick it right back up again. I probably have a better feel for bowing then the bachi, but I would like to do well with both eventually.

Do you have a Kokyu koma? I’m guessing you might since you have a Kokyu. Do you think you could try slipping it on your Shamisen to see if that has an affect as well? It should make bowing the individule strings a bit easier, too.

And of course…rosin rosin rosin (resin)!!

It might also help to try using a cello bow, they are a bit bigger and thicker. Not sure if you can find one but just a thought!

So exiting!!

#33

awesome . . . I didn’t find that clip looking for “kokyuu” (is it one or two u btw?) and can still be looking forward to going through the bulk of Kevin’s cool clips . . . anyway the instrument of my dreams besides a regular shamisen might be slightly longer / bigger than the kokyuu so somewhere in the middle but this would be great to have no matter what I start looking for a source now of course hoping that the quarter size may also come with a somewhat related price :slight_smile:

and I would also be interested in the koma for the other way around reason so as far as I understood I could and would need to use a regular full size shamisen koma on the kokyuu for playing with a bachi?

#34

BH,
I think it is two u . A lot of times the damn auto spell check on my iPad deletes the extra u even though I am typing it in. Anyway thanks for checking out my videos.

Evyn,
Unfortunately that was not my kokyuu. it belongs to Masahiro Nitta up in Hokkaido. Kyle and I going to see him in less than a month to work on the first bachido Cd.
(second Monsters of Shamisen cd).

#35

Ahh I understand, sorry Kevin. Well let me know if/when you decide to work on the bowed Shamisen again. I am really interested in seeing what you come up with.

That’s really exiting your working on a Bachido CD! Will it be a musical CD or instructional CD?

#36

looking forward to that too . . . as for Kevin’s clips that other latest one is just awesome too in karl’s thread most helpful for me to at least grasp the idea I am just saving your channel for a long viewing session sort of and have of course seen quite a number of them already . . . good work :slight_smile:

#37

I’ve played mine with a bow as well. It is not very effective without amplification, and is totally awesome when you can get your hands on a Beniya model.
I think that the curved koma is a completely bad ass idea, hehe. Unfortunately, the Beniya model has a fixed koma (since it’s actually the pickup for the instrument), so I doubt there would be a way to modify one in that way.

One more thing to note, if you have a crappy bow, then it will be a lot harder to play with.

#38

Thanks BH. glad you could get something out of the video I made after Karl H’s post. That’s encouraging me to make more like that.
One of the things I would like to get into is different methods I have observed using Tsugaru bachi patterns and applying them to improvisation in both personal and ensemble settings. There are Definately some “tricks” to it and I have always felt that musicians who say they "can’t " improvise often find themselves jumping right in after only a few experiments.
Anyway, that will be something for future posts !

Thanks again.

#39

Grant - it’s great to hear about another Shamisen bower! I’m really exited to give it a try when I get my first Shamisen. What kind of bow did you use? I was thinking of finding a cello bow.

How quiet is “quiet” when the Shamisen is bowed? I had no problem hearing the sound on Kevin’s video. Do you mean if you we’re to perform somewhere and need good volume to be heard?

#40

:open_mouth:
Amazing how intensely involved/long (in great way :wink: ) threads are becoming in under a day recently! I don’t know where to jump in! :wink:

Eric: Tell Katou-san yoroshiku for me! :slight_smile:

Evyn:

Great idea using a kokyuu koma, Kyle! But it woulden’t be too small for a full sized shamisen? I wonder?

Actually, width-wise, I think it would be fine. The width of most koma seem to be rather similar. In fact, koma for kouta shamisen (the smaller model) is wider than a koma for tsugaru shamisen. :slight_smile:

New idea, coulden’t you wipe the strings after bowing? I know resin is sticky stuff, but maybe wiping with a slightly damp towl would help prevent the gritty sound if you wanted to go back to bachi. If that doesen’t work I guess worst-case like I said above, you could have strings only used for bowing.

Oooh… If my memory is correct, the rosin really was stuck to the string like salt on a pretzel. However, we didn’t try wiping it with a damp towel. The might be the solution!

I also wonder now, could you still use a bachi if the Shamisen has a curved Kokyuu koma? I am guessing it’s possible if you can adjust to the curved shape.

True, the koma would have to be switched out. I guess switching between the two in a song wouldn’t be as easy as I thought. :wink:

Kevin:
When you played the kokyu with the bachi, did you notice what the strings were made out of? Were they all silk, or were there tetron strings like shamisen? I’m guessing that the san no ito was silk, so the hairs would have something to grab (as opposed to smooth nylon)

I notice that the koma on the kokyuu is placed near the maruana end of the dou. It’d be interesting to place the koma in the same place and see if it sounds even more kokyuu-like. :slight_smile:

“We can see what this baby sounds like - ssssssscccccrrrrrrr” :smiley: Love it!

© 2020 Kyle Abbott